Hi - I'm new...

Sorry to hear that you have had this nasty (POP) experience. Hopefully the Forums and the website will set you on your way to improving your POPs.

Just wondering if your spinal surgery will prevent your body from getting itself into Wholewoman posture? Would you mind elaborating on what was done, and how it affects you now? It might be helpful for us to know where the spinal problem is. Email me offline and let me know if you don't want the details published.

It would seem odd that you would feel the fullness just by waking up, still horizontal. Was it any different when you stood up? Have you checked with a doctor that there is nothing else remiss?

Are you close to ovulation or menstruation? Or pregnant?

There is also the possibility that 'intense sexual activity' could be the cause of your pelvic tissues being stirred up in some way, possibly inflammation, unresolved engorgement or even some bruising. Hopefully any of these effects will resolve in time.

Now, go and have a good sleep. It sounds like you deserve it and need it!

Cheers

Louise

:-)

Hi Raven

That gives a better picture of where you are coming from. I have something longstanding and weird happening at the base of my neck, with accompanying muscle spasm, which I think is preventing full mobility in my neck and shoulder area. I am still trying to find the motivation to go and get its 'ten year' checkup done to find out what is now happening, so I can work out what sort of therapy might help me manage it better and resolve it as much as possible. I am aware that surgery may be suggested to resolve it, but I don't think surgery is likely to leave me with less problems, as you so aptly illustrate.

While I find that WW posture, diet, clothing and exercise is effective at keeping my POPs at bay, I feel that my upper back and neck are still not quite doing it right, so I could potentially get a better result from the posture. Apart from anything the pain and discomfort of it are a PITA.

So, in my experience, a dicky neck is not necessarily going to sabotage your WW posture much at all. At any rate, the other aspects of Wholewoman are very valuable adjuncts to posture. The more tools we can throw at our POPs, the better.

Some women have a digestive system that is prone to constipation. Some women have internal scarring from previous surgery to deal with. Some women have a challenging physical environment in which to live and work. Some women would rather die than ditch their favourite jeans in favour of more stretchy garments, to allow their belly to move forward and accommodate their pelvic organs and keep them safely out of the way. We all have our challenges, whether they emanate from our brains, our bodies or out external environment. We just utilise what we can to make our bodies work as well as possible under the circumstances.

You could also be right about the intense sexual activity, particularly at our life stage (I am 56), where connective tissue is more likely to weaken and break down. Our bodies seem to change quite a bit at menopause and the management issues change. It might be time for a change in sexual style, for the sake of the integrity of your body, and so you can remain sexual for longer! ie take to marathon waltzes, rather than marathon R&B, as marathon seems like your style. ;-)

Hang in there. You can see some of the DVD on Youtube. Wholewomaninc is Christine's channel. If you put $2 a week away for less than a year you would be able to buy that book. That is where all the gutsy theory, about why WW posture works, is described, with wonderful, clarifying illustrations. Reading the book is the way to translate the basics into any activity you do, and to decide on the spot whether or not your planned activity/task is going to aggravate your POPs.

Keep calling back.

Louise

Hi Raven,

Sorry about your situation.

What I did until I was able to place my order for Christine's book as well as dvd, I borrowed the book (1st ed) from my local library. That was a great start, now the local library has the dvd on order. I did speak some time ago to the contact person, and told her that Christine has published a 2nd ed of her Saving the Whole Woman, but just checked the on-line catalogue, and so far, nothing is showing to indicate this, therefore I will be calling that person again.

There is another option, and that would be to request an inter-library loan, from your local library, but that may take some time.

Best of course, as Louise has already mentioned is to save up for your own copy.

Great guidance, great references! A most helpful and informative read for everyone.

Good Luck!

Oceanblue

Dear Raven,

The one unfortunate downfall of borrowing a most vital and important book from the library, particularly for your health and well being, is that an other will already have it or you might join others on a wait list, plus the borrowing period will force it back, sooner than when you wish to return it.

Christine's Saving the Whole Woman is a book that you will keep close to your bedside, there is so much to learn... enjoy!

Hugs,

Oceanblue

Hi Raven and welcome. Your symptoms sound v similar to what I experienced a few months ago ie fullness feeling when lying down and worse after sex. I won't write much because I've been having a lot of back and neck pain lately so I'm trying not to use the keyboard, but I just want to give you a brief idea of what has been working for me.I also have spinal issues (ankylosing spondylitis), possibly some fusion, may never know because I won'r have x-rays, but definitely lots of muscle stiffness and twists in my spine. I have been seeing an Alexander technique teacher who combines it with myofascial release and a cranial osteopath.

Basically, I think that while WW posture is the end aim, we are all unique and have structural differences - some women may not be able to "do" the posture ie pull themselves into it eg because of scoliosis or whatever. I am now in posture most of the time and my POP hardly bothers me but it's taken a lot of treatments to get there and, as I say, I'm getting a lot of back pain. But my message is do not despair - I was close to despair at one point several months ago, couldn't have sex, couldn't even squeeze a tube of toothpaste without feeling that everything was going to drop out. I can hardly believe that posture alone has made such a huge difference. I use an Alexander approach to getting into posture ie I think and release myself into it, I don't do it, that creates more tension in my back.

Until I was feeling a bit better I used a sea sponge as pessary when I went out.

Re sex, I had many useful tips from women on here. What seems to work is (1) take it very slowly and don't even think of penetration until after at least one orgasm (!!) (2) use loads and loads of extra lubrication (3) start with you on top so you can move carefully and either stay there or move into missionary/other position when it's really comfortable (4) keep it gentle.

Hope that helps, I wish you luck Judith

Hi Judith,

It is good to hear from you. I do think it's important to mention, however, that the sorts of spinal fusions you are experiencing are very common in post-hysterectomy women like yourself. The WW work is very much about stressing how much more female anatomy is alike than different. There is a basic core spinal anatomy that when aligned correctly reduces and often eliminates bodily aches and pains. I know it sounds unbelievable, but the uterus is the core of the female body. Without this large, muscular organ that is wrapped virtually all the way around the bony pelvis - front, sides and back - the entire skeletal structure destabilizes. Mathematically (geometrically) the uterus is the center of gravity and determines how the human female body moves through space and is shaped under gravitational forces.

I think it is fabulous that your prolapses have stabilized with this work! I will look forward to hearing of your future progress. Yes, many women cannot fully utilize the posture, but I believe everyone - even women in wheelchairs - can benefit from aspects of it. Alexander correctly identified the upper body posture and he was right - head and shoulder alignment leads the way.

Cheers,

Christine

P.S. and Welcome, Raven!

Hi Christine,

Just a quickie as I'm off to bed, to clarify - I haven't had a hysterectomy, I don't know what gave you that idea as I can't have ever said that I did. But now a penny's just dropped, it explains a comment you made in another post that didn't make sense to me, maybe we've had some conversations at cross-purposes?

The fusion, which I may or may not have (and if I do it's only in a couple of vertebrae) would be to do with ankylosing spondylitis, that's what the ankylosing bit means - the spine calcifies if AS progresses.

Re Alexander, the principles apply to use of the entire body. He identified the head and neck relationship as being the primary one but I understand that there are AT teachers who believe that the hips are more important (probably regarded as heresy by old school ATers). Yes, I firmly believe that everyone, whatever anatomical peculiarities they may have, can only benefit from the posture. Judith

Sorry Judith, yes - I was confusing you with someone else.

I'm sure the Alexander schools have added to F.M.s original work. I believe I read everything Alexander ever wrote and never did I see anything mentioned regarding below the shoulders. He certainly had no inkling of the differences between the male and female spine, nor the horizontal pelvis. I'm so glad you have found something that is helping your condition.

:) Christine

Dear Raven,

Thank you for your response. The 18th is less than a week away!

I purchased the most current edition, and that is the 2nd. There is much information to be absorbed. What is great is that there are good photos of Christine doing the 'Whole Woman Workout', plus so much more, including a bonus musical CD.

Yes, it's a great book!

Hugs,
Oceanblue

Hi Raven

I have asked myself the same thing on many occasions but I find myself thinking that there is little reason to ask that question because it 'just does'.

I think it might be because WW posture rotates the pelvic contents up and forwards. Christine talks aabout winding up the pelvis. I have just realised that this is what she is talking about. It kind of stretches the first half of the vagina out, and tips the uterus forwards, the vagina folding forwards just below the cervix. The new position of the uterus then forces the lower half of the vagina backwards from perpendicular, because the fold (where the cervix is) has to move towards the back of the body. Intraabdominal forces then act at right angles to the vagina, not down the vagina. The rectum is joined to the back vaginal wall by the (damaged) fascia. When you stretch the vagina out the damaged section of fascia stretches lengthwise too, which narrows the space that the rectocele normally pokes through. The rectum would get pinned down by the horizontal sacrum, so the rectum would not collapse so easily down into the rectovaginal space. I would think this narrowing of the gap in the damaged section is kind of like the narrowing of the midline separation in a woman who has given birth. Stretch out the rectus abdominus by lifting the chest and that midline separation will close up a bit, just like a rubber band when held taut by both ends, as opposed to when you are holding it so close that it collapses on itself. Keeping the bowel contents soft, malleable and progressing underpins the body's ability to maintain the new positioning.

This is my explanation. All I know is that my rectocele hardly bothers me at all these days. The fine detail might not be quite correct but I am sure the principle of reversing the collapse by winding up the pelvic contents is sound, just like you wind up the garden hose to stop it from going wherever gravity takes it.

Cheers

Louise

Nice explanation, Louise! Thanks!

My cystocele, rectocele and uterus all take turns, right at the entrance; at least that is where I can get them to when I bear down for a medical exam, or after a particularly strenous day. I am not sure what stage that is. However, I don't let them get that far out of choice. Mostly they are well inside and do not bother me with symptoms. It seems to depend on how full my bowel is.

Hi Raven

I was in a bit of a rush with my last post and completely omitted to metion that I have also seen a wonderful PT who has given me exercises to restore strength to certain muscles, especially the psoas, which weren't firing at all and consequently leading to any pressure I exerted going straight down into my vagina. Which brings up the point again about women who have some kind of muscul-skeletal dysfunction. Whereas the posture and exercises are perfectly straightforward for women who don't have this, for those of us who do it may, although not necessarily, be useful to do something extra as well. Difficult I know on a tight budget.

Re the posture, the main reason that I absolutely knew for sure that Christine must be on the right track is that, before this site even existed, I found that if I had an Alexander Technique lesson when the prolapse (rectocele) felt bad, I couldn't feel it at all at the end of the lesson and it would stay that way for a while. I just didn't fully realise why, other than that I was more upright,and didn't know how to keep it that way. I recently had a 3 year break from 25 years of having weekly AT lessons, and in that time I'd acquired all sorts of habits, totally without realising, and I am now working on those. I think it's something that always requires awareness.

Christine is right that Alexander seemingly didn't give any thought to the distinctions of female anatomy etc and it's also the case that Alexander teachers vary enormously in their methods and knowledge but I have had many teachers over the years and I would say that it always addresses the entire body and that, at the end of a lesson, you will be pretty much in WW posture. So I would always say to anyone who is sceptical about the posture being effective, possibly because they aren't doing it correctly yet, is to have one or two trial AT lessons and notice the difference. Then keep working at the WW techniques in the knowledge that they will work. AT alone won't give the insight and understanding of the female pelvic area but it will give you an experience of proper posture. But, btw, AT isn't about posture really, it's about use of the body, a big subject. Judith

That's exactly how I discovered my POP! Too new to give much advice, but I've done the dvd workout three times now and have already seen improvement.