Yet Another Newbie: and fear for the future!

Hello and welcome, Moy...

Oh good! I get to tell the story of my client who is visiting me this week from Canada. She is a lovely 72 year-old with 3rd degree primary uterine/bladder prolapse. We had our 2 1/2 hour Intro Class yesterday and she will come back for an hour each morning this week. She is generally very healthy and flexible, but it’s so interesting to see how her fascia has tightened around old injuries and habits so that certain “hitches” have accumulated stress, resulting in a fair amount of overall disability. She can sit on the floor, but like you cannot cross her legs very well, so her knees are held high off the floor.

Like so many women today, she came in with a sunken chest as a result of a weakened and rounded shoulder girdle. Loss of lumbar curvature has resulted in the compensatory hump at the base of her neck. Toward the end of class yesterday, as we were moving around the room, she caught a glimpse of herself in the mirror and let out a spontaneous laugh exclaiming, “I look so much better!” And it was true! Her face was bright and she looked ten years younger.

Today we started on the floor with my recommendation that she try to regain competency in basic, classic seated positions. There is no reason we should ever lose our ability to sit crosslegged or stretched out on the floor and I absolutely believe it is something that can be reclaimed.

From there we moved to the barre for the first few exercises from the WW workout in the book. She has no significant injuries, yet the fascia in one of her legs is pulled so tight that she cannot plie in first position without her heel coming off the floor. Her entire leg draws up and her heel with it no matter how hard she tries to keep it on the floor. All of the exercises are pulling her entire body into alignment and I have no doubt that by the end of the week that heel will stay put! We then did some balance work with the baton in the middle of the room - which she so dearly needs. She is a strong woman with many good years left and there is no reason she shouldn’t progress to a much higher level of ability into her very old age.

The exercise makes her prolapses “feel so much better!”, which had not been her recent experience with yoga. I plan to send her home a new woman.

Please don’t worry, Moy. You will stabilize and hopefully reverse your symptoms like so many other women here. Until you are able, we will trust in your body for you.

WIshing you well!

Christine

Hi Moy

Your perspectives sound very sensible. You are well aware that you are the customer and they are the salespeople, and that is the way it should stay. You will make any decisions about your body, with the input of your whole network. It is an interesting perspective you bring being carer for your husband and relying on your physical integrity to keep both of you living normal lives and not beating a path to the nursing home with its downward slope to death. I had never thought before about the life-threatening nature of POP in that way. Good on ya!

I am 56 and had about forty years of tummy tucking and butt tucking to unlearn. I have been doing this WW work for about 5 years now, and am still seeing improvements in the way my body behaves. Occasionally I do something really stupid and my POPs show me with avengence that they are still there. However, they are always OK again in a few days. I now trust my body better than I have ever before. I certainly don't let POPs stop me from doing anything, even though I now do many tasks differently. I am an impatient, stubborn old cow at times and I work most comfortably by myself, so I have to use my brains a lot to figure out how to shift wardrobes and other tricky tasks without damaging myself. I have just had two days of room swapping and survived it all, intact. I hope to have a very active old age.

Re sitting cross-legged, I have found that ageing changes have robbed my joints of some of their padding and lubrication. The pressure of the floor really hurts the contact points of my ankles. A thick firm cushion helps. The stretching of sitting cross legged is very important for freeing up all the muscles around the pelvis, so it is worth trying different ways. You will need to do it gently at first, as you will have a lot of longstanding stiffness to undo. Baby steps, baby steps.

With your spunk I cannot see you anywhere near a nursing home for a long, long time!

Cheers

Louise

Hi Moy, Welcome. I just spotted your post. A quickie to say I can't write much right now but will get back in touch at some point. I'm in N London, where are you? Judith

Louise, you said:

"You are well aware that you are the customer and they are the salespeople, and that is the way it should stay."

Anything that changes this relationship is very, very dangerous. Unfortunately, I see things going that way. To have this power (of being the customer), we need to keep the power to change doctors, to choose.

Moy, try not to let them pressure you, when you see the consultant. In the past two weeks I have had three of my doctors (none were gynos) tell me that I need to go ahead and get the complete repairs. To humor them, and to learn about the latest techniques, I MIGHT go visit what is supposedly one of the most advanced teaching-hospital gyno centers in the country, and ask them to explain to me EXACTLY how they propose to tie up my bladder, push back my rectocele, prevent my uterus from sliding out, hang up my vaginal apex, and keep my intestines from dumping through the manhole that is my pelvic outlet.

I am also interested in knowing how many female cadavers hung in the vertical position they dissected in med school. Or at least how many MRIs of the female pelvis in the vertical position they've seen.

But don't worry. It's highly unlikely they will be able to convince me to go for it. Moy, if you want to refuse this surgery, know that you are not alone.

Let me know when you are going. I would like to come. Perhaps 20 or thirty of us could come along? we could go out to lunch afterwards. Woo-hoo!!

Or you could video it and put it up on YouTube. Then we could all have a laugh! They'd be real pleased about that, wouldn't they?

L

cynical.cynical.cynical! (slaps self with ruler)

Hi Moy, sorry for the time lapse, I'm working hard at keeping my back pain-free, which means minimal computer time.

If we were Americans or Australians the distance from North to West London could be popping out for a bag of sugar, it's nothing. Whereabouts in W London are you - I'm Southgate, a few stops from the end of the Piccadilly line. Where's your specialist and when are you going?

Somebody did contact me once about setting up a London support group but I haven't heard anything. As you say, there's a lot of pro-surgery about. I'm also not a habitual "joiner", and especially not around health issues, I'd rather spend my time talking about other things, but I also make exceptions.

I'll chack back shortly. Judith

Not me. I'm in Western Australia. Sorry, I cannot find out who is in London, but I am sure all the active Londoners will respond to you if they want to get together. Have fun!

L

EDIT: Moy, I have only been to London once, May/June 1972. Probably changed a bit since then.

BTW, we have our own dawn chorus. Western Australia has just ditched daylight saving, thank goodness, and gone back to real time (GMT + 0800). We have enough sun in Western Australia.

Now the birds start at 4.00am again, and proceed to wake up progressively by species. The willy wagtails are first, when it is pitch dark. How do they know when to start? I am usually a night time person, but for some reason, probably related to menopause, I seem to need less sleep and have started waking really early and learning about all that early morning stuff that only dairy farmers know about. I am finding it delightful. L

Hi Moy, I understand the wry smile, I suppose it must feel that you might as well be on the other side of the planet. Here's a big wave from one end of the Picc line to the other.

In answer to your question, I was diagnosed with a rectocele about 10 years ago, when I was 42,shortly after getting unmistakeable symptoms, but I realised that I had had some intermittent mild symptoms way before then.

I'm glad that the shock horror feeling is receding, I think everyone on here has experienced something like that. Sooner or later a more positive and pragmatic state of mind kicks in.

Re consultants, my experience of seeing an NHS one a few years ago was very positive, insofar as she was totally anti-surgery, and I know a couple of other women with a similar experience. I suppose that a private consultant might have a different agenda but I think that the general situation here is quite different for that in the USA. As has been said by various members, including myself, I think the best attitude to go in with is that of an informed consumer making enquiries. Your final decision is actually nobody's business but your own.

I wish you all the best with your appt, please do keep us informed, I'd like to know how you get on. Judith

Hi Westlothian

Christine would probably be best to comment on the grittiness. Mine goes a bit gritty too, but the grit does melt. I suspect it is the wax separating out from the other oils with their different melting points. But it does still melt at body temperature so it is fine when it is 'in'. Now it is summer in Australia the balm is much less solid and the grittness seems to have gone away. The grittiness may come back when it all solidifies again in a few months.

L

Hi Westlothian,

Glad to see you back and I hope we can continue to help you along your way.

Your comments prompted me to put mine into a little pan of hot water too, as I was also tired of dealing with the little bits of hardened wax - lol. It is very cold here, especially in the warehouse, and that is probably the source of the problem. BB is made in the ancient way of infusing herbs into oil and wax inside of huge urns. I have seen the operation myself and the all-organic process is quite impressive. The ingredients are not mechanically or chemically emulsified, and so when it gets cold the wax tends to congeal. All it takes is a few minutes in hot water to soften. If you liquify it, it won't go gritty again if kept at a reasonable room temperature.

:) Christine

just checking--are you familiar with the British School of Osteopathy. if you want osteopathy they are much cheaper.

will reply more soon--sorry, need to go sleep rather badly!

Kiki

I guess 'reasonable' room temperature is the key. It is not sensible to keep it on the windowsill in summer. I guess a wine cellar would be the most sensible place for year round texture control. Hmm, I might need to move our wine cellar into our bedroom (or only have sex in the wine cellar)!

L

Hi Christine - After the 1st hour at your site, ordered the book, DVD, etc., and ready to go. Thank you for this special place! But.. lots of thoughts and questions!
I will turn 49 next month (25th wedding anniv this year), but never had children. Growing up I had terrible posture and most likely slouched quite a bit at my desk jobs thru the years. Switched things up and became a licensed physical therapist assistant at age 38, plus still work as an at-home med-transcriptionist. Two years ago lost 45 pounds, and one year ago was at my "goal weight". In my years of schooling and in my work as a PTA no one ever spoke of POP. There would be mention off and on about "kegels", but nothing more. I almost feel cheated about not being informed.

Anyway, 3 months ago started noticing vaginal fullness and discomfort with intimacy. Also, gained back about 20 pounds and depressed about many job changes (outpatient closed, lack of work, etc.) At that time had a lot of other things on my plate so pushed my personal problem aside for a later date. After a slip and tumble down 3 steps landing on my glutes (no injury, so I thought), and a couple of weeks later after a night of dance at the company party I noticed things seemed to be getting worse.

This week my PCP saw me and now referred to a local OB-GYN for Monday. (Well, she saw me, but really didn't see me as she stated, "I think you are less than a grade 1 (POP), but I really didn't look..."?!) I showed her the WW article on kegels, but the only thing she said was, "kegels won't hurt." I stated I thought a uro-gyn would be more appropriate for a followup appt, but she stated "There are a lot of good OB-GYNs in the area" and referred me over (a choice of 2 with 1 being known for doing "the surgery"). I called the out-of-town URO-GYN, but was informed she is booked up 4 months in advance - the majority of these are surgeries! So I will see my local ob-gyn on Monday, but I am emphatic in stating I do not want surgery!

I believe I am catching this early, but still distraught as I felt my postures had improved dramatically over the years. I taught patients to maintain good posture (head centered over shoulders, chin slightly tucked, shoulders over hips with scapula slightly retracted and down, lumbar curvature in "neutral spine" posture), and always state the lumbar lordotic curvature varies from person to person and we should all maintain our natural pain-free curve in our lumbar spine. Our clinic basically focused on abdominal bracing using neutral spine techniques.

About a year ago I attended 40 hours of "boot camp" of sorts toward pilates certification on a pilates reformer unit (rolling carriage utilizing springs with mainly UE/LE exercises in supine while promoting their "neutral spine" and "proper breathing" techniques. These breathing techniques focus inspiration/expiration throughout the lung fields while bracing the abdomen (transversus abdominis) into neutral spine. With this pilates, it is stated neutral spine is where your ASIS (anterior superior iliac spines) are in alignment with the pubic symphysis, so if you were to place a cup of water on your abdomen it would not tilt/spill as one maintains this 'braced' posture. We typically place a hand at the hollow of the lumbar region to make certain it is not flat-backed in order to maintain the lumbar curve.

**Now, I'm worried. The pilates reformer is sitting un-used in my exercise room. Is pilates okay since I am basically on my back on the reformer performing the exercises while using the moving carriage to facilitate challenge to the core? Should I maintain more of an anterior pelvic tilt with bracing techniques while performing this, even when supine? Is everything I am doing causing abdominal pressures which are definitely not indicated for POP? Was this in fact caused by pilates?

I also have a local gym that I am signed up at and also help out at a local Curves exercise facility. I had been performing crunches, but not for the past six months. Would "reverse crunches" on a Thera-ball be okay? Can I continue to strengthen/tone the transversus abdominis/core? I'm so fearful that this will progress, so I'm putting the breaks on everything at this point.

My new goal/focus is to get this POP corrected, if possible. It may be my imagination, but since this minor correction of a slightly increased anterior pelvic tilt to encourage the lumbar curve, and with my WW posture, I think I am seeing a difference. (Could this be?!) Christine, I couldn't wait to post to your forum as I really need your input/encouragement, especially with the exercise and discussion of posture. P.S. If my POP is caught early, and even though I'm now close to 50, will I be able to eliminate it? Also, should I go ahead and get a pessary? And will this help me during exercise? I'm so sorry for the ramble. I'm also so glad you are here. Maybe some day I could visit your facility (I live in Ohio). Thank you.

HI Moy,
Just thinking. If you go down the physio route, just keep watching your body. See what helps and what doesn't. You are in charge. First physio i went to had me doing 100's of kegels. very fast everything felt awful. next physio felt like a brilliant therapist who gave me loads of reassurance, and in the process said work up to 15 good kegels at a time, less is more. i like the minimalist approach ;-)
(now i can't even say i do 15, but do a few...)

i don't know enough about osteopathy. do know they'd probably not think WW is "correct" at first site, but do also think they really listen and would take it on board. osteopaths i mentioned it to thought it was super interesting. just aware school would be students who maybe aren't as comfortable with outside their box but on the other hand may be more so....who knows! but hey, you don't have to live with them and can ignore anything they say ;-)

k

Hi True Blue One,
Lots of pilates / postures questions which I think others are better placed to answer BUT do put pilates in the search box--good conversations about it. so check them out.
re eliminating POP, the experience of many many women here is that through WW their POP get much much better. check out Nauli and Firebreathing on the DVD. they can really really really help. also christine's excercises are great. reading the book will help you understand more about your anatomy with regards to POP, and start to decide what is best for you.
once you get things stabilised, you will start to have a better sense of what helps and what hurts. i personally think so much is possible through this work, but i also know how overwhelming it is what you first get POP.
I would say that seeing lots of doctors, know why you are going to them. if it is for a diagnosis fine, but also look on the FAQ page for the self exam.
also know when you go to the doctor most have never heard of WW, are entrenched in the idea that Kegels are best, and most think surgery is the answer. go in prepared for all that, and take away just what you want but know you may also walk away with some extra anxiety as in order to push surgery they like to say that it will only get worse etc etc. just know that lots of women here have had the opposite experience!

keep asking away, and i'm sure someone will step in re pilates etc

Kiki

Just reinforcing my own thoughts and feelings prior to going to the doc tommorrow morning, so once again had to visit this site. Received the book/DVD yesterday, but had to work. After work started reading the book - and almost finished it in one evening! I was very impressed regarding the total holistic approach that she gives - from the anatomy to nutrition and everything in between. I don't think I will present my WW concepts. I have been to this doc before and he is a bit arrogant (oh I guess that's my personal opinion). But this site has given me the strength and knowledge to "just say no!" to surgery and will chuckle inside when he most likely will mention the kegel routine. As I am on the precipice of peri to menopause, he might recommend HRT - but again I don't believe I am interested at this point. I have managed successfully to get through my hot flashes and do not see where the HRT would help me in any way. Thanks again, Kiki. I just started viewing the DVD and tried a few of the exercises. Can't wait to go through many of them tomorrow - right AFTER that gyn appointment! have a good evening. ****PS - something odd since I started with my WW posture. I am not feeling the heaviness I was feeling last week and my belly is getting a bit more pronounced. Is this normal?