My thoughts about the posture

I've had chronic back pain too, and you're thoughts about WW posture are right (or at least it is for me). I no longer have any back pain. initially I had muscular pain up between my shoulder blades, but I think that was just due to the fact that I was using muscles that weren't accustomed to working too hard.

I find that slinging a baby high up is key, even better is a wrap or meitai that you wear over both shoulders. when I sling a baby too low, or a toddler on my hip, I find it difficult to keep in posture. difficult, but not impossible.

pg is another story. I personally do not find that the big belly helps at all with the posture. in fact, in late pg I find it near impossible to get my pelvis in a good place. it **looks** like it is, but doesn't feel the same. at least not for me. could be different for different women.

and it is so liberating to accept our nature, rather than try to force our bodies into being what they were never meant to be. the ballet workout is fabulous, I only wish I had the time to dedicate to it!

Hey granolamom, what do you mean by it looks like your pelvis is in a good place but it doesn't feel the same? How does it feel different to you?

Good point about slinging versus pushing a stroller! One more reason to wear your baby.

I was with a pregnant woman yesterday who has (so far) been spared my ramblings about pelvic floor / pelvis stuff and while we were chatting her baby was doing a jig in her belly, little kicks everywhere. She winced as one hit her ribs and sat up a little straighter (nutated beautifully and angled more so on her sits bones), stuck her chest out, curved her lower back, and held her shoulders a bit higher and farther back. I had to smile as I noticed this shift. So yeah, the posture is often natural when you are pregnant!

let me preface by saying that this is my experience and not necessarily Truth For All, ok?

when I'm pg, the increased lumbar curve feels as though it is a result of the thoracic spine moving relative to the lumbar spine as opposed to when I am not pg and it feels as though it is a result of the pelvis moving relative to the lumbar spine. when pg (and I mean largely pg, like from the 8th mo on), I feel as though my pelvis is in a neutral position and possibly even counternutated. I can achieve nutation while on my hands and knees but not easily while upright.

don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but that's how it felt for me.

Good observation. Yes, this is what happens as the baby's head engages. Aza?

Granolamom, did your babies (baby?) engage deeply into your pelvis before birth or were they still floating at your pelvic inlet or just dipping down here and there? I am guessing they nestle down into your pelvis around the time you feel your pelvis goes either neutral or possibly counter-nutated which is a normal side-effect of the sacral flaring that has to occur for the head to nestle in. What do you think? I like the way you describe the lumbar curve in relation to the pelvis vs thoracic spine, very interesting for sure.

Hi Ribbit

You might find doing it in that order will tense up a heap of muscles. You don't have to push your tummy out. Try just letting it go, from the ribcage downwards. I try to make myself taller from the mid-spine, which sends my chest up and out, and my butt out, then I can relax my shoulders, then my tummy will let go. You could also just try playing with your tummy muscles, and feel what they do by themselves, and when you consciously suck them in. It is a brain thing as much as a tummy thing.

Yeah, looking pregnant when you are not sucks!

L

Hi Ribbit,
Yeah, that is the pattern we are taught of engagement of first and subsequent babies but in practice I have seen it actually be a bit different. In first babies, as long as someone has nice and roomy inlet, a baby will engage a few weeks before birth and general stay put unless s/he has gotten into an uncomfortable position and needs to rise back up and readjust. In subsequent babies, they seem to bob up and down (often daily) with the greatest of ease, independent of positioning of comfort. This to me indicated it is more of a response to the pelvis and uterine shape and tone, which is interesting in and of itself from a POP perspective (not meaning all women have some sort of prolapse by baby #2, meaning that clearly there is a laxity and increased space in the bones of the pelvis and the tone of the uterus). From what i have seen, in subsequent babies I would estimate that about 75% experience this bobbing baby syndrome.

Yes Ribbit! Well said. That is exactly what it is. Do that, keep your shoulders relaxed and not held back, and your chin in (not jutting out), and keep your knees unlocked, and you have got it! Your abdomen will stretch out, and come in slightly, all by itself, in a gentle curve rather than a pear shaped blob, as long as there isn't too much extra padding on it. You will certainly look less pregnant. If your boobs are out front, you won't look pregnant. And you will look smart and confident. Once your abs are stretched out they will start to get some tone (some resilience), just in everyday movement. If you are forcing any part of your body you are likely to get some pain until your muscles adjust. If you cannot get the pain to subside you are probably tensing something. Body awareness will point out to you what is happening, then you can re-adjust.

I think often that pain is because we are not fit, and we suddenly tell our bodies to firm up, and find that the muscles that are required to do this are just not strong enough to do the job of balancing their antagonist muscles. They say it takes about 6 weeks for exercise to produce discernible results in a previously unfit person. I guess it has to be the same with postural adjustment.

BTW, I just read your initial post again. I too share your feeling of betrayal about being told to contort my body into an unnatural posture for about 35 years (for me). What a waste of everybody's time and effort! I am still angry about it, five 1/2 years after starting WW techniques. Righteous anger is certainly useful for getting us to 'pull our finger out' and do something about it.

Do you still have the back pain that you experienced as a child?

Louise

Aza, and others who work in the area of childbirth,

I wonder if the physical measurements of the pelvic inlet actually increase from during the first to during the second pregnancy? I wonder if anybody has even bothered to research it? We take so much for granted because we have always been told that it is so.

eg, I was doing a lot of research into cord blood banking a few months ago. I have always taken it as fact that the baby needs all the cord and placental blood it can get, and that early cord cutting or harvesting of placental and cord blood is depriving the baby of its initial blood supply. I calculated that it could feasibly leave the baby with only 45% of the blood it could get. I spoke to the Director of Neonatal Care at a major maternity hospital (a personal friend from way back) about this, and he told me that nobody had ever researched it. There is no hard data out there to justify what seems to be a sensible assumption.

The end of the story is that my call was timely. They have just received a major grant to study this question in premature babies, because it has implications for optimising their care just after birth when they are so vulnerable. I was relieved that somebody is at last answering the question, which will at last tell us the real effects of early cord cutting and cord blood harvesting, at least on premature babies, who has no say in this process. In Australia it turns out that there is no formal cord blood harvesting. It is only done by the parents setting it up with a private company, and with the hospital's cooperation, well before the birth.

I wonder if maintaining WW posture for as long as the mother can, during third trimester, could be a factor in preventing early engagement, and premature birth? Now that could really set the cat among the pigeons! Midwives? Your comments please.

Cheers

Louise

Hey Louise, early engagement isn't really a problem- it is not a cause of premature birth that I know of- and in fact wholewoman posture encourages the baby to assume the head down position- as far as I can tell- by creating the correct dynamics for the baby to get the message that gravity is sending. One of the tricks to turn a breach baby is to do pelvic rocks on hands and knees- this opens the pelvis and allows the heaviest part of the baby to move into the optimal position for birthing.

about pelvic outlet size increase- here is what I can tell you from my experience- the tendons and ligaments stretch out during pregnancy- pretty far in some cases (like the round ligaments) and they never return to pre-pregnant tautness- what this means is that there is a bit more room and a bit less support. I know that after my first child my measurement to weight ratios changed dramatically- I had to carry much less fat on my hips to be able to wear the same size pants- but I am guessing it is the pregnancy that causes this increase in size and not the actual birth-

I agree with you that WW posture is very positive for pregnancy, and that it is a normal biomechanical response to a big beautiful belly out the front. I am thinking more that slouchy posture with less than optimum pelvic nutation in third trimester could get the foetus' further into the pelvis earlier than it should, and send the body/brain wrong signals about being ready to emerge before it is fully developed.

I am not really talking about abnormal presentation, but about the foetus' head or body or bum or whatever, getting forced by the ribcage too low, too early, and putting pressure on the cervix which, instead of being at right angles to the top of the vagina, will be right down on top of it, with less support to keep it together.

Not sure how this would translate hormone-wise. If the pelvis rocks back and allows the head to engage too soon before term, surely that is not normal or good for the foetus? ie engagement sort of has to happen for the baby to emerge, even in a preterm birth, maybe up to 12 weeks prem, these days (but I guess the head is smaller, so it might be able to emerge without the change from nutated to counternutated and back again?)

If ObGyn world does not understand WW posture, how can they say that non-WW posture has no role in preterm labour??? They don't seem to see that posture has any bearing at all on anything, saving writing out a cheque. That's why their cashiers' desks are so high!!

Until they understand WW posture and the role it has in supporting the uterus and bladder in the non-pregnant woman, and the postpartum woman, they will not even think there is a question to be asked about posture in the pregnant woman and its possible effect on the wellbeing of the foetus/baby. Da Vinci's aeroplane could not exist in the air until the invention of the internal combustion engine made it possible to turn a propellor fast enough to get it off the ground. You cannot have a cart unless somebody has invented the wheel.

Am I in fairyland, or am I thinking straight? Please tell me.

L

I totally agree that the pelvis is intrinsically changed after birth, sometimes in subtle ways and sometime not so subtle. I hear women all the time saying they feel the changes after birth that you did, alemama. I also agree that early - and often very very deep engagement - is not necessarily a factor in premature birth. If a woman is going into preterm labour, it may exacerbate it, but it is not - in my experience - a cause in an of itself. I am reminded of a woman at 43 weeks with her baby's head 2 knuckles just inside her vagina and a totally closed completely posterior cervix. Labour (eventually) started and she birthed in 5 hrs; clearly there was no need for much pushing ;)

Slouchy posture and ribcage forcing babies down south...the poor kids certainly do not seem comfortable in women with lousy posture, that is for sure. But what I have seen is that rather then forcing the baby down into the pelvis, they seem to carry very much out in front. This is a progressive thing that happens throughout a pregnancy of poor posture rather than a one off with a lazy day of lounging back on the couch. Does that make sense?

Who knows when is too early to engage? Women with spacious inlets often have nicely engaged babies by 32 weeks or so. This is usually when a baby has decided to be head or bum down versus transverse, so is unlikely to engage before then since there is not anything to really engage with, so to speak, so premature births before this time are often due to other factors.

You are in fairyland, and you are also thinking straight :)

I just had to comment about posture..
When I go to my massage therapist she says I have "TAS" based on my tight glutes (probably from subconsiously tightening them all of the time) - short for "tight ass syndrome!"

It's funny, but actually can lead to a whole bunch of problems including sciatica. I must keep thinking about not tightening my butt up so much!