sitting posture

Hello snickspar!

I can tell you how I interpreted the sitting posture, and it does depend on the chair/sofa/bed (floor is easy!) you are sitting on as well! When I am on a chair, I sit on the edge with WW posture throughout my upper torso, legs spread and feet firmly on the ground. My torso is at a 90 degree angle to my legs. While on on a sofa, again, I engage my upper torso in WW posture, and alternate between sitting cross-legged or legs stretched out. Louise is great at explaining things, you could do a search in this forum for her response from the past!

I think the key to sitting is keeping those organs hugging your abdominal wall, safe and secure over your sit bones. Which, of course, would mean you need to have a nice curve in your lumbar spine!

I was also wondering about sitting - as I am in the study and my office chair is as low as it goes, which isn't that low! Find I end up slumping a bit and can't maintain posture. Any advice?

I really like Oneofthree's very simple explanation. Simply that you need to keep your pelvic organs hugging your abdominal wall and not slipping backwards. You just do whatever you have to do to enable that to happen, no matter what you are sitting on.

The optimum is to keep the angle between your thighs and your back at about 90 degrees. This means you cannot slouch your shoulders, or else your pelvis will tilt backwards and take your pelvic organs with it. A firm triangular base gives you stability, no matter whether you do it cross legged or sitting on a chair with legs akimbo. Knees well apart is very supportive of the lumbar curve, for some reason. It just feels good, and is easier to maintain than keeping your knees together. It also means that you leave room for your belly in between, which I need.

Once you understand the aim of the sitting posture you can find a way to sit in a POP friendly way on almost anything. Now that is real freedom!

I only sit on chairs now. Kneeling chair or regular. On a regular chair I sit as Oneofthree described.
I sit on the floor if there is only the sofa or something soft is an option.
Liv

When at computer I start out with good posture, then realise I have hunched over to see the screen, which is too low. So even if I sit in the proper posture and the chair is low my eyes are not level with the screen, therefore I slowly start to hunch over as I read.

Although you say you can find good posture with almost anything Louise. I followed your description, and all felt great, it's just that I feel too high up. So I guess - new chair?

How about sitting your monitor on a couple of phone books or encyclopaedias? If you are using a laptop, get its screen to the right height with phonebooks, and plug in a separate keyboard and mouse that are at the right height for your arms and hands. There is always a way.

L

Good idea, will prop it up on something! Gotta get used to thinking posture is the priority at all times :-) Thanks

I was just about to start a thread on this subject, but I saw this and decided just to ask it here if that's okay.

When I sit in posture, my back feels better, but I have a big problem. My cervix is....well.....VERY LOW. When I sit with a pillow behind my back, so my hips are tilted correctly, my cervix scrapes the seat. I've already given up pants because of this. The seam that goes up along the crotch is just impossible. But even with just underwear there, it's still very painful! So I tend to curl up to get off my cervix. Bad for my back, but.....With my cervix hanging so low, how do I sit with the curve in my back and my belly relaxed and NOT crush my hanging-out cervix???

Ribbit...you must get your cervix inside. I know you are working so hard on all fronts, but this is a must. Mine is inside all the time at this point, but it wasn’t always so! Here are some ideas:

Push it all the way forward first thing in the morning. Firebreathe and nauli immediately after and then pull up into an exaggerated WW posture. The exaggeration comes from really lifting your chest, pulling your shoulders down and tucking your chin. Your lumbar spine should extend to its max.

If this isn’t enough, dampen an organic cotton ball and tuck it up between your bladder and cervix. This pulls the cervix right up.

Firebreathe; make large, wing-like movements with your arms while walking in the posture (harnesses fascial support from a huge area of the body); get down on your hands and knees and firebreathe/nauli periodically throughout the day.

Sit in the posture - really, really helps.

Concerted effort with firebreathing/nauli Will pull up your cervix - believe it!

:) Christine

Hi Ribbit

I can also suggest standing in front of your chair and bending deeply from the *hips* to invert your whole torso (as if to do up your shoe laces while standing). Bend your knees as much as you need to and allow your belly to go between your thighs. This uses gravity to move all your pelvic organs into your body. Have a little jiggle in that position if necessary to encourage their movement. If the jiggling doesn't work, lube well before you start so that your vaginal walls and cervix are not tacky, and can slide over each other. Then simply plonk your butt down on the seat and straighten from the *waist*. Voila.

Are you still experiencing constipation and back pain? If so, it might mean that you still have a lot of inflammation in the area of the sacrum and lumbar spine (and the dreaded bulging discs), so your lumbar spine may be still limited by that inflammation. This may explain why you can't get your cervix inside. I really think increasing the flexibility of your lumbar spine will be the key to making some more progress. I hope I have remembered your history correctly.

My chiropractic x-rays were taken in a standing position, some from the front and some from the side. Have a look at them and see what your spine and hips are doing in them. Are the wings of your pelvis in front of the pubis? Are the 'rails' of your pubic bones horizontal or slightly downhill towards the front, to act as a slippery slide for your bladder and uterus? Is there a lot of bulk in front of your sacrum and coccyx (being intestines full of stool) that are changing the slope of your vagina, and pushing it forwards so that it is vertical, rather than sloping backwards the further in you go? (I'm not sure that you will be able to see this much on the x-rays?)

That backward slope *creates* the 90 degree bend between the vagina and the uterus, which keeps the cervix high. Without the angle, the uterus and vagina are almost in a straight line, which makes it too easy for the cervix to descend.

Penetrative sex might also help to restore the spacial relationship between the intestines, rectum, bladder and vagina.

Getting the amount of bulk in your intestines down, and making as much room in your abdomen by keeping your chest high, your lumbar curve in place, and your belly relaxed are the keys to this. I am not sure how much excess weight you are carrying. Lots of fat on the inside of your abdomen, surrounding your organs will also take up precious room.

Good luck.

Louise

Louise

I'm going to have to reread this when I don't have a massive headache.

My most recent thought is that perhaps I have Lyme Disease, and it's not helping the prolapse any. I've been in enough pain that I can't exercise. The bulging disc is a real problem too.

I'm carrying about 10-15 extra pounds that just won't go away, and it's all right on my belly. By 6-9 months postpartum with all the other babies, I was down to pre-pregnancy weight, 130 pounds. I'm 10 1/2 months postpartum now. I'm wondering also if there are some muscles in the front there that separated during pregnancy and didn't go back together. I have a big bulge of skin over the pubic bone too that was never there before.

Thank you both, and I will read and reread tonight before bed.

Take your time Ribbit. You sound quite exasperated, and it is time for a rest, and an icepack, then tackle it later. Sorry if my explanation was not clear. The load on a mother with little children is enormous. Take care.

Louise

I don't really understand how to tuck my cervix back in. It's not comfortable to handle at all, and I've only done so very gingerly when I was checking to see if it was still there (it always is).

I also don't understand where to put the cotton ball. If my cervix is at the top of the vaginal opening, do I push the cotton ball above or below it? I don't really know where my bladder is in relation to the fallen cervix.

I know y'all have said that sex isn't a problem with POP because things return to their normal position when you're on your back. But my cervix stays there. The OB didn't even have to do an internal exam. He could see it easily. If I'm on all 4s it's a little better if I'm VERY sway-back.

Ice on the low back helped some. Ice on the headache didn't, and I'm going to call the chiropractor as soon as they open this morning.

hi ribbit
just wanted to comment on that big bulge of skin thing. I was horrified to find that one year pp after the birth of my third child, I had that bulge of skin above my pubic bone even though I was down to my prepg weight. and baby number three was not even very big. my younger but wiser sister lovingly pointed out that a bunch of pgs will do that to ya (she's had more than half a dozen babies).
and as for the muscle separation, are you doing nauli and/or firebreathing regularly? I had a pretty big separation after my second, which healed up real nice once I got into firebreathing. wasnt even noticeable during this last pg (and that was a big baby).
sorry to hear about the lyme's and pain. that's got to just make everything worse {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}

Ribbit, I am wondering what is stopping your uterus from sliding up into your belly if you do the torso inversion and jiggle trick, with plenty of lube to encourage it along. I am trying to visualise it. Do you have a retroverted uterus. ie is the opening in the cervix pointing towards your anus? Or is it pointing towards your clitoris, or perhaps straight downwards? I cannot figure out why it will not go in by itself; why you have to push it back, which as you say, is very uncomfortable and unintuitive. It should (though I hesitate to use the word 'should') just go back in by itself if your body is in the right position.

I just went back to some older posts of yours. You did mention that if you stayed in the elbows and knees position your uterus does move up, and then you feel the need to empty your bowel. If this works, I would try doing it as much as possible. If you have back pain, my guess is that you have quite a bit of muscle spasm, with the muscles around your spine tightening up in an effort to make a 'splint' around the inflamed joints to protect them. This will press the injured disc even harder when you are upright, and result in more pain and inflammation. It is a vicious circle when that happens. If this is happening it will make your spine less flexible and unable to get into the lumbar curve which will tilt your pelvis and let your bladder and uterus slide forwards and your cervix to rise, like it does on elbows and knees. With the urge to go that you experience on elbows and knees, this might explain why you are getting constipated.

I am surmising that your intestines are not sitting comfortably, maybe compressing bits of itself, because the uterus is in the wrong place, and your uterus is in the wrong place because your intestines are in the way, and all plugged up. No win there.

If elbows and knees will allow your bowel to empty and make more space for your uterus, then that is what you must do to *allow* your uterus to get back to where it needs to be, and break the cycle!

We put a broken leg in plaster for six weeks to allow the bone to heal. We strap a torn ligament for weeks to keep the bones together so the ligament can heal in the right position.

Mostly crawling for six weeks and doing lots of abdominal vacuum exercises like nauli and firebreathing sounds like a pain in the butt, but you already have a pain in the butt, so how about giving it a go? You might get rid of that pain in the butt.

Several things are working against your body getting back its normal organ positioning. It will only be a multi-front attack that will allow it to normalise.

I do wish I could help you more.

Louise

My cervix points sort of forward. To clarify, it doesn't go back to where it's supposed to be when I'm on my back, but it will move out of the way (further inside I guess?) if I'm on all 4s with a sway-back. It's the only way sex is possible, and even then it's not comfortable.

I don't know about the uterus, Louise. All I know is that when I had an ultrasound with this last pregnancy, early on, the OB said my uterus was laying way back. So I already had some prolapse even before this birth. I'd blamed the prolapse on this birth, but I think it was already there to a certain extent and I just didn't know it.

I agree that my back spasms have a lot to do with the way I stand and sit. I have never had a flexible back and have just worked around it for years. I thought it was chronic stress, but maybe it was the bulging disc too. Or maybe the stress caused the disc problem. Maybe the pregnancy or birth caused it. I don't know.

At any rate, your explanation of the rigidness "protecting" the spine is reasonable.

Ribbit, it sounds like you do have a retroverted uterus, from the doctor's ultrasound comments. It is common enough that doctors don't make a big deal of it. They say it is an anatomic abnormality, but I think it has a lot to do with how we use our bodies at puberty.

If the girl is ambivalent about her changing pelvis shape and gawkiness she is bound to hide her butt and tummy, and slouch over to look skinny and acceptable to herself (with her twisted, media-driven teenager ideas of beauty and fashion). It has been thus since the voluptuous 1950's. I can remember being really annoyed that I grew thighs and could no longer fit into my favourite Bermuda shorts at the age of 13 or 14 (approx 1967). (I have never had much of a butt!) I was always selfconscious in my racing bathers because I had developed a belly I couldn't hide, no matter how much I sucked it in and tilted my pelvis back and flattened my lumbar curve to make it disappear. (I was proud of the boobs, but resentful that everyone else's were bigger.) At our all girls school there wasn't much hidden in that first generation of racing bathers. No lycra, baby! We did a lot of swimming!

Back to the retroversion. When the uterus and pelvis is growing, prior to menarche, I think the form of the ligaments that suspend it is probably being set. Tucking the butt will tip the uterus back and probably stretch the round ligaments that maintain its forward repose. The uterus sits between the two ligamentous layers of the broad ligament, along with the fallopian tubes and ovaries, and all the nerve and blood supplies and lymph vessels. I imagine that these two layers will slide over each other, depending on whether the forces are pulling the uterus forward or back, and set the adult configuration of the broad ligament, once growth has stopped. It would not then change much until perimenopause, when the uterus shrinks until menopause. The postmenopause volume (not capacity) of the uterus varies a lot, from 8 cc to 99cc in nilaparous women, but often much larger in multiparous women according to how many babies they have had (more = larger postmeno uterine volume), according to a Pakistan authored study, "An Ultrasonic Study of Uterus Size in Postmenopausal Women", http://www.pakmedinet.com/704. I didn't see full text of article, only Abstract.

If you take a look a the BMJ article about the MRI scans during sex you will see how the retroverted uterus can get really squashed during missionary position coitus. Lying on your back for a gyn examination or ultrasound exam is going to tip your uterus backwards at the best of times. If it is prone to retroversion it will definitely slip backwards. so I wouldn't worry about your cervix not being in the 'normal' place when you lie on your back. It is more likely to get into 'normal' position when you are on hands and knees, as you say, or lying on your tummy. Yes, it will literally go back in further. How to get it to stay there is what you will have to figure out, with all the tools we have here.

Have you tried coitus with you on top, leaning forward from the hips? Your partner's erect penis will reposition your uterus quite well. The other good thing about this position is that you are in control of what your body is doing, and the direction and degree of penetration, and how fast you progress with it. If you feel pain, you simply fix it yourself by easing up or changing direction, without having to translate for your partner, who is probably lying back with a blissful expression on his face.

I have damaged lumbar discs and I had a retroverted uterus until about three years ago. I have had pain around my lower back, SI's and tenderness around my pelvic bones all my adult life. Like you, I don't know what is cause and what is effect, and never will. However, since my uterus shrank near menopause it can now flip over to anteverted most of the time. Occasionally it flips back but I only notice it after a 'setback' when I can feel my cervix again, but it goes back to normal every time now.

I have found that bellydance has increased the flexibility of my spine in all directions, particularly the upper back (veil work - I call it pumping iron for girls - very strenuous with a mid-weight veil). My body is tired and often a bit jelly legged after a class, but my stiffness and pain has evaporated. My upper back and shoulders, have become way more flexible than they were a couple of years ago. My lower and thoracic spine have also become more able to twist easily. There is no doubt at all that stress plays a part in rigidity of the spine, but I know that it is not the whole story. I figure that the muscles around my lumbar spine may always have some spasm so they can protect the injured discs, so it is a constant battle for me to maintain and increase spinal flexibility in the other parts of the spine. It will be interesting to see another lumbar scan if I ever have to have one, to see if they have repaired themselves.

The spine is a whole organ. I think that if you can increase flexibility in any part of it, it will contribute to flexibility in other parts of it, because of all the long muscles that attach between the pelvic bones and femurs and lower parts of the spine; also the long muscles that go from the arms and scapulae to the spine; also the muscles that go from the ribs and the spine; also the rectus and obliques that exert forces on the spine via the ribs; and don't forget the TA that pulls your pelvis together at the front, and spreads the opening at the back, which keeps your pelvic floor taut. I could go on. You built spinal flexibility by contracting and relaxing all these muscles. The stronger they are the less your damaged discs will wobble around and hurt. The more likely they are to heal. I think that with appropriate strengthening of the whole unit damaged discs *can* heal. The problem to overcome is that the exercise hurts, so we tend not to do it. This is the place where horizontal exercises can be useful.

Granolamom, and the other physical experts, I right with all this???

This is why dance and other whole body exercise is so important, and I agree with Christine that it is important that it be done in a vertical position for strength building, except as above.

Louise

is much happier if I am strong. I have worked very hard on my glutes and qls and it helps so much
and there is def a abdominal component to it too- and a balance of those back to front muscles

but the honest to goodness truth is that for me I am constantly managing. Ice, rest, heat, exercise- that is what it takes. No deviating
and times like right now- where I have a very sick baby - and he wants to be carried around all day- it kills my back, kills it and no amount of strength training, ice, or exercise will help until the need to hold him all day passes. But the recovery from this is so much easier now that I am stronger.

Oooo, Alemama, I feel your pain. I hope this illness passes quickly. They do all grow up, but it seems to take an eternity if you are coping with a back injury.

Well, not sick, but teething. And she wants to be carried around all day. Or nursed. I can't do it, so she follows me around, crawling from room to room, crying, while I unload the dishwasher, make meatloaf, tend to my currently sick 7 y.o., referee the arguments between the 3 y.o. and 5 y.o. and sometime in there I'm supposed to exercise. At least I can multi-task here on the computer--I can type and nurse. :)

Thanks for explaining all that to me, Louise. I believe stress is a big factor for me. I was always told I was fat (I wasn't, I was just taller and bigger than my older brother, so he had to insult me to make his scrawny self feel better) and I was always told I was slow and clumsy (that was true). I was the dense one at school and that didn't help my self image any. In addition to the insulting and being generally dense, I got very sick when I was in 3rd grade. I've been tired ever since. And in pain. I am currently awaiting test results to see if I have mono, Lyme, MS, or all the above. I'm seeing a neurologist next week to see what he has to say about it all. There's definitely more going on than just prolapse, but I wonder if it's all tied in together.

Everything tied together meant I had tense muscles and bad posture. I was set up for prolapse even before I had children.

I get the feeling that there is more than a grain of truth in that last sentence. You and I and all of us are *whole* women. We cannot just deal with the bit that is bothering us. It is the whole woman we are talking about, and the whole woman we have to fix up. Go for it, girl, in amongst everything else! Be gentle on yourself.

(((Ribbit)))

Louise

Alemama, what do you do specifically --other than Christine's workout-- to help your back?

ice- 52 degree cold plunge for 20 min a day.

stretch in a therapy pool (heated and chest deep). some days I do a yoga series in there- others I just stretch out my hamstrings and quads- usually 30 min

rest- I may not go to sleep- but I get in bed at least once in the afternoon- we all snuggle up and read for about an hour- and then I rest again in the evening before gearing up for bedtime for kids

run/walk- everyday - keeps things lubricated (20 min min- 1 and a half max)

build up my glutes (squats, lunges)

back extensions- 4 sets of 30 (sometimes with weight)- these are on a padded stand that you put your thighs on top of and your ankles under- if you google it you will find it- it's the one where your torso hangs at a 90 degree angle to your legs

equal amounts of leg extension thingies-

massage/bodywork- 2X a month

avoid long car rides- car rides kill me
avoid lift and twist- like heavy clothes out of the washer into the dryer
avoid the one hip carry for our baby (the ergo is the best for a structured carrier)

I go barefoot all day at home- I think this is pretty good for my back- until it isn't anymore and then I try shoes- but I think overall that barefeet really keep the body stronger.

I have also done Bikram Yoga in the past and that has helped, and acupuncture - which did not help

So, my back- ya- it's a ton of work to keep it happy- but as long as I keep up with it- I feel pretty good and I am totally spoiled and at least 3 days a week I get to do most of this stuff-

our recent stay at the hospital was hell on my back- but I am recovering (did a back flip today off a platform at the springs- no joke :)- actually did 3 of them).

Car rides kill me too. They require you to use core strength to remain upright during a curve, and I have no core strength. I can't drive more than 1/2 an hour or I'm exhausted from all the leg-lifting to push the pedals. DH has to drive me places, and it's frustrating for us both. Because he travels, which means I have to stay home until he's here.

Hey Snickspar, did you get the answer you wanted to the question about 45 degrees back or forward?

Ribbit, I have been reading your comments over the last couple of weeks and have felt unable to contribute much. However, I can see that now you know that your core is not working and that you have some diastasis you are much further along than you were, and your lack of progress with POP symptoms makes sense too. Whether or not this is anything to do with the Lyme disease thing is the big question. Now to find a solution. YOu cannot use WW posture to strengthen your abs if you cannot get into WW posture, so a physiotherapist seems to be a logical person to help you. Another possibility might be kinesiology. Not sure how it works, but I know it can help restoring function and range of movement. It sounds to me like it is a nerve function problem, rather than a muscle problem. Unblock the nerve pathways and the muscles will be able to function. I know you will solve this puzzle. Hope it doesn't take too long.