I know people mean well, but...

"Why could I complain about my c-section scar still being numb, but not my aching vagina?"

YES. Thank you for articulating that, Christinabf ! WHY?

Why, even, can I talk publicly about my polycystic ovaries, but not my aching vagina?

I have carefully, casually, experimentally let drop to three people now that I have a 'uterine prolapse'. I have not mentioned the celes, or explained anything at all.(and they have carefully avoided asking for any further info) Because I can sense that the moment anyone 'gets' that it's not just 'about' my bladder or my bowel, or even my neatly hidden ovaries or uterus, but actually that MY VAGINA is being compromised by all these... well, then, my HUSBAND must be having a problem. And how very shameful of a woman to cause her husband a problem.

Ok, where did that all fly out of? Sorry, I am sleep deprived. And dealing with a whole lot of marital sexual stuff. But it feels to me as if there is some truth to it. Especially where i live. Where a breastfeeding mom I know was recently reprimanded for 'doing something like that' in front of children, while the man of the house doing the complaining had girly mags with naked boobies on open display in the loo...

Vaginas are not for babies they are for men, and you and I ought to have thought of that and rather have had another c-section. (NOT)

So yes, christinabf, your job is to look good, and to provide sex, and who cares what you feel.

Well done on that flat tummy. It means you m i g h t keep your man. And dont ever own up to a substandard vagina because then when your husband leaves you, you won't get another, not with advertising like that. Because we live for men, dont you know.

Men who want us to give birth on our backs and tuck our butts under and wear tight clothes.

And talking about your aching vagina makes other women nervous. C-scars can be neatly hidden under the bikini line, dahling, but THAT....

I've never been a radical feminist but I swear I'm on the brink of becoming a political lesbian and dedicating my life to writing poems about vaginas (maniacal laughter. Time to go to sleep.)

I love a good rant!!!!
Interesting perspectives.
Squeek, have you ever seen the vagina monologues?

LOL!

Oh Squeak, I had to do a double take on your post, because I thought I had written it! You have expressed quite a few thoughts that I have had and probably written about as well.

Some of these thoughts are the type that pop up when we are least expecting them, and we dismiss them because they are not deemed to be useful at the time, or we censor them because they would not be deemed acceptable if we articulated them.

I call them 'rabbits' (which are very destructive feral animals in Australia). We shoot them if they pop their heads up, effectively obliterating any evidence that they had ever been there. However, these 'rabbits' come subconscious, and often speak the truth that we dare not say. We ignore them at our own peril.

The fact that we cannot comfortably talk publicly about our aching vagina or aching vulva does not mean that there is any actual shame attached to having a vulva or vagina, though word 'pudenda' actually means shame. I suspect that this shame is actually about the lustful thoughts that lead men and women to thinking about penises and vaginas.

There is no shame attached to the penis. To the contrary, most men are pretty proud of them! They handle their penis several times a day while urinating and washing, which would be unworkable were they ashamed of it. I guess they put all that shameful lust about genitals onto women, metaphorically hiding it away in the secret cave with its entrance hidden behind a hairy curtain, away from the world's judgemental gaze. They literally put their shame *inside* woman and leave her to carry it around for them. We don't even handle our genitals a lot. We certainly don't say hello to them and shake hands every time we go for a pee! We have to work hard to become friends with our genitals. If they are misbehaving it doesn't make it any easier to be friends with them. We would rather they stayed hidden behind the hairy curtain and behaved themselves too!

Dark thoughts indeed, but worth examining with a view to normalising and befriending the vagina and the vulva.

Louise

people are like that. I think its the fear. whenever I share anything about my PPD people invariably say 'but you really seem so together! and you look fantastic!'. I feel compelled to explain what its like to have to force feed myself for my kids (response to which is usually 'I wish I had that problem, I have such a hard time with my weight!') or what its like to be taken over by irrational anxiety and compulsively scrub my entire house (response: 'I wish I had that problem, I'm so bad at housekeeping') or what its like to start crying for no apparent reason and just not be able to stop (response: 'I know exactly how you feel ). PPD scares people, they don't get it, they don't know what to say, they hope it never happens to them or it actually has happened to them but they are too proud to admit it.
I think POP is so very similar. not only must our emotional self be whole but who wants to think about a messed up vagina? I'll tell you who...NOBODY. a c/section scar is so very medical and scientific and lifesaving, the woman becomes a hero, doing what she needs to do to keep her baby healthy while a woman who births vaginally only to wind up with prolapse seems like a failure for not coming through ok.

well, I take you seriously, if that helps any. you don't have to explain any of it to me, having btdt.
and I've figured out what to say to those who say 'but you look fantastic'.
I say thanks but that is a separate issue altogether, and it does not negate the pain of the depression/prolapse/whatever else I may be sharing about

and you know what else? I've found, that with the exception of my close friends and family, when people ask about my birth, all they want is the happy stuff. they don't want to hear about the ppd or the pop or the episiotomy, they aren't prepared for it so they wind up saying stupid things.

I hope you and your dh will spend the rest of your very long years together healthy and happy, christinabf, but I don't doubt your ability to get another man -even with a prolapse. unless that's how you introduce yourself, because that's just plain weird (hi my name is christina and I have a substandard vagina, pleased to meet you : )). the prolapse is not going to affect how sex feels to a man and likely most men are far from perfect (we had a thread a while back about how the scrotum sag with age too, would you even know or care about that?)

I really feel for you, with that constant urge to pee symptom. I can't remember when it went away for me, but I remember about 6 mo in I realized I wasn't running to the bathroom every half hour anymore.
It can and does get better, I hope that it happens soon for you. I also remember feeling handicapped by this, I no longer do. please hold on to hope, there is good reason to.

so much marital sexual stuff to sort out pp sometimes, even without POP. the POP makes it so much worse. I'm sorry {{{{{{hugs}}}}}}
wish it didn't have to be so hard

bless you g-mom, i do need the hugs :) . In the interests of women being honest and supporting each other i am going to come right out with it and briefly state here that my husband is a masturbating porn addict, that being turned down in favour of porn models hurts that little bit even more after prolapse, (also because now i have prolapse so its definitely my fault!!) and that there is a fabulous site recoverynation.com if any of you are ever in the same leaky boat (hope not)

And tx for naming the rabbits, Louise - i came so close to deleting that whole post vs posting it!

Christinabf, the good and bad news is that i have figured out my prolapse actually happened before the birth, so we can't really know if c-sec would have helped any.

But definitely a problem i have is that i am embedded in a very strong niche of pro-natural-birth women who have to fight against the c-sec mainstream (90percent where i live!) for the right to birth vaginally, so it also feels like i'm betraying them when i own up to prolapse because no matter what i protest the mainstreamers will blame it on vaginal delivery

I think you are so on target about moms are supposed to just be happy and get on with it. such rubbish. G-mom i'm so sorry for your ppd, that's deblitating. i had it after previous birth and yes, you are right, nobody wanted to know, which makes it worse, doesn't it. HUGS BACK AT YA ((((())))))

And Christinabf, i love you for telling the resistant world about your weeweewee all the way home problem because at least it lets the little piggy out to market, doesnt have to stay home, and the more that happens then eventually other piggies will be allowed out and maybe one day we'll all get full attention and support flavoured roast beef at last instead of none (and if u dont have that rhyme in your country right now you are so thinking i've lost it totally!)

Well, I think here in my country we don't have this problem. We are pessimistic, honest, and we always say out loud what we think.

I see now the differences. We like to rant and vent about our birth stories, nursing issues, sleep deprivation, weather, salaries, POP...Somehow like this:

"...and I ended up with POP!"
"OMG, really?! What is it? How did it happen? What are you gonna do now? Do you need any help? I knew something had happened to you, because you look like crap!" lol

Christina, sorry about the constant urge to pee! I had it for long months, and around 1 year PP it was gone. So there is hope, it'll fade away.

Liv

Clavicula, where do you live, I think I'm going to emigrate ; )))

I bet you don't have whole society epidemics of low grade alcoholism and every other person on antidepressants, either....

And, without emigrating, I'm going to read this post a few times and start reacting that way when other people tell me something :)))

...it is Hungary. Well, antidepressants? Alcoholics? I told you, it is a pessimistic nation. BUT...I think, we are very good in expressing feelings and thoughts honestly.

I have some american friends here (mostly missionaries), and part of them are suffering from this directness, some of them are dwelling here! :) Fun to see how different we are!
So never ask here:"How are you doing?", because we'll explain it in obnoxious details! ;)

Liv

wonderful :)
i know where i live 'how are you' is meant to be answered 'fine'

after my first child and ppd, i started deliberately asking moms at shops if this was their first and if they said yes, then instead of asking how it was i would say something like 'its a huge shock to your system, isn't it' i think maybe all of two moms really didn't know what i meant, the rest nodded eagerly, relieved to discover they're not the only ones struggling

i wonder what would happen if i started asking other shoppers 'and any prolapse problems'?

yep, same here, squeak. how are you = something you say when you see someone. the expected answer is 'fine'.

I once asked a pp woman I know how she's coping, rather than 'how are you' and omg did she open up. and we're not close either, but it turns out she had ppd and a colicky infant and really really needed someone to hear that. so I wonder what would happen if we started asking after pp womens perineums.

and thanks for the hugs back, squeak. my ppd is mostly gone, just some trailing bits of it when I am doing too much for too many and not enough for myself. my depression has actually become a barometer for me in that way, so at least it is serving a purpose of a sort.

again, so sorry for what you are going through. I once suspected my dh was into porn (he wasnt) and oh did it hurt. in my head I knew it wasnt about me, really, but sure felt like rejection of the most painful kind. you know how beautiful and sexy you are, but its not the same as being wanted in that way.
if I had a magic wand..........

and I enjoyed your 'little piggy' slant, you should think about writing (if you dont already).

Oh, coming in a bit late on this but just want to hug everyone...here i go...
{{{{{HUG!!!!!!}}}}}
Christina--read new post on constant urge to wee, maybe some wisdom will come up that helps. It is horrible, I know ;-( But it does get better, might just need a bit of help from you.
Squeak, huge hug! Thank you for your honesty--more women need to talk about this stuff! I do hope you two find a way forward that heals the hurt and keeps your relationship strong and solid.

And re the asking of other women...Some people just don't know how to respond do they. They are trying to be positive, helpful etc...but sometimes, you need to just be able to say" this sucks" and ahve someone say "I'm sorry it sucks." I hated the "at least you have two beautiful children" response. When I was at my most miserable, telling me to be thankful did not help with bulgy, have to pee all the time, back aching miserable feeling! I didn't resent my children, or want to send them back, but it is so easy to think "what if..." especially when you think that the worst is how it is going to stay. But i had a great antenatal teacher come friend who instead told me to be sure to do all the mourning, even the bits about resentment and anger, and get it all out and work through it all--as that was healthy and important. I didn't have to keep looking on the bright side. And when i came out the other side, I had no desire to trade my gorgeous children for a POPless body--but i had to get there myself, not because everyone told me how lucky I was!

: ) When my son was small I used 'roast beets' since this is actually a favorite food for me. But now he has a book with the 'beef' in so I have to do it 'right'.

A vegan friend of mine says 'roast beans'

As for the 'at least you have two beautiful kids' thing here's the thing that most people don't realise when they say that: (and I know this isn't true for everyone every time, but sometimes it is) Sometimes the tragedy is that your ppd or pop or whatever is so hard to deal with that it gets in the way of the love and care and attention you want to be giving them. So emphasising the beautiful kids in that moment as a way to make you feel your problem 'doesn't matter' is a cruel contradiction: because part of the agony is knowing that part of their beauty is getting lost on you as time flies by and your attention is divided by this ISSUE...

I remember phoning a crisis line when my son was tiny and i had ppd, and she basically told me to take my mind off the depression by 'enjoying the baby'. How could I get through to her that if I was able to 'enjoy the baby', half the problem would be sorted? I was so depresssed that I couldn't smile at him, and then felt bad for him that he had a mommy who couldn't smile at him and then.... round and round

And what about a woman with recent pop with grief about not being able to just lift and swing her beautiful children in the air?

Hi All

I am picking up in this thread a desperate desire to be able to be honest with others and honest with ourselves about "How am I?" We all have a basic desire to be accepted, just as we are, and to seek support and encouragement when we are feeling weak. We also want to be not judged by others who get a surprise when we give them a literal answer to the question "How are you?" We want to be able to express our own feelings of vulnerability, and not be looked down upon, and we don't want to shock the listener, but we don't want to hold back either. We want someone to acknowledge our pain.

We are women, as John Gray puts it in the Mars and Venus thing. We don't primarily want a solution. (though that would be the icing on the cake). We just want to be able to express what is in our hearts, and to be heard, acknowledged and feel some hope.

If we have to say "Fine, how are you?"", and smile, then perhaps we have to be OK with that. As we have all discovered at one time or another, "How are you?", said sincerely, is not always a genuine enquiry that seeks to connect with another human being and express empathy, but rather a way of acknowledging the presence of another human being in our space, and being polite, in a way that would *normally* make the other person feel acknowledged.

Suffering is such a self-centred place to be, where false assumption, foretelling the future, mind reading, guilt, shame and other irrational thoughts and emotions dwell in profusion. I think that is why we find it difficult to consider the reaction of the greeter, should we answer with all our technicolor grief.

I guess we don't really have the right to lay it on them until we know that they have the time and the inclination to be interested in the answer. That is what small talk is for. Likewise, it is sometimes burdensome to say to an acquaintance, "Hi, how are you?" and have it laid on us, when all we were doing was getting in the elevator to go upstairs to the toilet, and are still standing there nodding and empathising, with a busting bladder 15 minutes later, and really resenting the conversation.

It is a hard call when all we need is a metaphorical hug.

I was in the middle of infertility treatment about 29 years ago. One evening, at a social gathering with friends and acquaintances, a new mum was showing off her little pride and joy, and said to me loudly, with a big smile on her face, across a circle of male acquaintances, "Wouldn't you just love one of these?" (Read: Look, I am fertile and you are barren. I am better than you!) I just crumbled inside, and thought, "You ignorant, hurtful bitch! How dare you", I thought, but I didn't have the presence of mind to respond appropriately, and explain that we had been trying for a baby since before her baby was conceived!" Our relationship never had a chance after that. Tactless, thoughtless comment on our behalf, irrational response on my behalf, but boy, was I hurt! my emotions still rise when I remember that night. Stupid, but human, I guess. It is so easy to innocently say the wrong thing to a person who is having a hard time. I don't blame her now, but I try to be careful about assuming why people are like they are, or why they make the decisions they make.

I just want to reassure you that it will get so much better!
I mourned my first 6 months with DS2, as I didn't feel like i really enjoyed it. It was consumed with my POP and my SPD pain, and just trying to function. But slowly that shifted, and I got to focus on my beautiful kids. I did carry DS2 in a tight wrap sling that worked for us, but by a year I didn't when DS1 got carried on and off for three years. I missed that, but I learnt to accept it as just what is.

But my kids know they are loved--and yours do too. They may not get my focus all the time, but they know they are loved and ultimately, that is what matters. Your baby knows she is loved. your older one knows. getting mama cuddles, stories, played with...they don't worry that you aren't chasing or piggy backing. my kids have learned what i can / can't do and that is just a part of me, not the whole of me. and now i do run after them, though i've never been a big runner, play ball, go bowling, spend days out. but for a good year we spend a lot of time lying around playing lego and reading stories and doing floor stuff with the baby. they loved me being down there--so don't underestimate the gift of just lying around with them...

you know, before I had kids I thought I knew what babies needed, and for the most part I did. what I didn't know was that the big thing about parenting is that if your kid is not the kid you thought you'd get its more about becoming the parent your child needs you to be rather than guiding him to be the child you thought you'd have.
so then I thought I had it all figured out, ok, learn what my kids need from me, figure out how to provide it and we're good to go. yeah great until you find yourself compromised in some way (ppd, pop, or whatever type of issue you may find yourself with). now the game changes, and you learn that you have to figure out how to accept that you might not be able to give your child everything that you want him to have and give him (ie swinging him up above you or happy smiles or babywearing or bf or whatever). this is a real loss, one that deserves to be mourned, I don't doubt that, I've been there (many times). but I think that G-d's got a plan and we are given our situations for some Reason. so we do our best, but we aren't perfect. and if PPD took my smiles from my infant, then that's something I will mourn in terms of my own loss and if it negatively affects my child, well, that's between him and G-d. I pray that G-d fill in for the gaps in what I can provide and try to let it go at that (try, and keep trying, my control freak thing doesn't let me let go too easily, but its a good goal I think), because really, that's all I can do.
I think that whatever you are going through, whatever limitations you have in giving to your child, your child knows your love. the depression, the anxiety, the prolapse or any other issue changes the way you'd like it to be - for yourself as well as for baby - but baby knows nothing else. you are his world and he loves you completely and inherently.

Oh Yesss. Thankyou Gmom for that wonderful post. It is so true, that we have to let go of our own expectations of ourselves and simply respond to life as it presents itself, and do our best, even if we think it is not good enough. Sincerely doing our best is all that G-d, or ourselves, or any human can expect of any of us. Being able to forgive ourselves and accept ourselves with all our imperfections is something to aim for.

Don't judge others and be free of self-judgement.

"if your kid is not the kid you thought you'd get its more about becoming the parent your child needs you to be rather than guiding him to be the child you thought you'd have."

Gmom you are a wise one. Im taking that out of context and taking it all over the place to quote to people.

wisdom is hard-earned that's for sure. I think we each learn our lessons the hard way and if we remain open and -yes, louise- non-judgemental we can save each other (and ourselves) some of the work by learning from one another.
and it comes back to the original post, if we can let go of the shame, guilt and fear and really hear one another, well, I can only imagine the worlds that would open up to us.

Oh yeah, Christina! After all, 'real life' is what this whole WW thing is really about. It is not about sitting up late on your computer making ourselves feel good by talking to imaginary women in other countries. It is about changing people's attitudes in our own communities and in our own families, and that can only be done by bringing POP out of the closet and normalising for them what is already normal for us.