not much hope for urethrocele?

Submitted by doubtful on November 8, 2010 - 4:40am
Body: 

Does anyone have any knowledge/ experience of someone actually getting and keeping a urethrocele back inside permanently with the whole woman approach?

I ask because, despite being initially optimistic that the first few months of this approach were helping me, I'm having a real confidence crisis. I so much want an active and largely carefree life back, secure in the knowledge that everything isn't going to gradually fall out, but there are ways that I just don't seem to fit into the profile of the women who describe success with the method.

Although I read again and again on the site that virtually no woman has just one prolapse, that is what my doctor and my self examination suggests - it's just a urethrocele. My cervix sits 5 1/2 centimetres ( or two finger joints) up whether I stand or lie down, which I am informed is normal for a parrous woman ( though it sinks a bit at the start of a heavy period) and I have no rectocele indications at all. I have a bulging pocket of vaginal wall at the bottom of the front, right by the entrance - and it drops down say 1cm on a regular basis. This may have been caused by my eldest child being born in the diving position - one arm coming out along with his head. ( Luckily his arm stayed attached to him and he is now a very handsome fifteen year old!)

I have no other symptoms apart from the fold/ bulge. Never had incontincene or a UTI in my life. Eight years ago ( about eighteen months post partum with my youngest child) ,I think I had voiding difficulties. Id find it hard to settle at night - keep wanting to pee a bit more and be up in the night a few times. This went on until I discovered Christine's book - and stopped immediately when I tried the forward posture. In fact, maybe after a few months of the exercises, I have no problems at all whatever postition I pee in and have long, restful nights.

But I still have this bulge( sigh)!. I used sea sponges for a few months but have just stopped, feeling they were giving me a false sense of security and making it difficult for me to assess how I was doing. I had hoped they would gently push the bulge back and encourage it to shrink permanently a bit. I am convinced there's no urethra in there any more - just an empty fold. It did seem when I would remove the sponge at night that the bulge had receeeded, but this was an illusion. I'm thinking about a comparison with breasts and a bra. No support at all equals eventually very droopy, but flattening them by bandaging them up would give the illusion of support ( as a sponge does) but just make them more droopy when you took the bandage off. What breasts need is a good bra to support without flattening. I can see that the pubic bone can provide this kind of support for the uterus, the baldder and the rectum and that the posture will really help these sorts of prolapse - but how can the pubic bone support a urethrocele- it's just too far down and in the wrong place. Yes, it's stays in when I am sitting or standing/ walking in a very exaggerated ( ridiculously overdone) whole woman posture, but it keeps coming down- I don't feel any overall progress. The organs might be pulled forward, but the bulge could, I supppose, keep getting worse to the point where I'd consider surgery if only it were a simple nip and tuck for a baggy bit of wall.

I feel the same question mark hangs over the whole diet thing. I've radically improved my diet along anti inflammatory lines, ( without becoming obsessive, rude to hosts or unable to treat myself to chocolate when I feel miserable) and yes, I never have constipation any more ( an occasional problem before but easily controllable with an ordinary high fibre diet) and my overall health is improved- but how on earth can this have any effect on my bulge? I can see, theoretically, that an anti-inflammatory diet might help a rectocele or shrink fibroids and so help with uterine prolapse - but is there any point going overboard on it when I'm dealing with something different here? The other drawback to the diet to women who are slim already is that it makes you lose weight. even with some cheating to stay sane. I'm five foot four and usually 128 lbs but have gone down to 120 in two months. I don't want to get any thinner, thinking of my bones, and maybe the weight loss is affecting my vagina as well. Remember how you can't lose more than 6 lbs without needing a diaphragm re-fitting?

I'm not knocking the method for many women and I've had some wonderful advice and support on this forum, but I need to work out, realisticallly, whether it is really possible to stop a urethocele in its tracks. I suppose if I could be confident that I was living the right kind of life to stop other prolapses developing that would be motivating. But how to get over this fear of being active on my feet all day, and longing to lie down with a bar of chocolate and a good book and think about bracing myself for surgery - or to retire to my sofa as a semi invalid
( I'm sure this is why so many Victorian women did that - not bad with domestic staff and no living to earn - I could write a novel instead!)

Horribly long post. Sorry. Anyone who feels they have an answer to some specific issue raised I'd be so grateful.

Despondently

Doubtful

doglovertoronto

November 8, 2010 - 4:47am

I think age plays a huge part and how advance the prolapse is
Younger women have muscles and ligaments that will tighten up with exercise, while older women ,the muscles loss their elasticity and with lack of hormones, it makes it even worse.
I am 66 and although with doing yoga faithfully twice a day I noticed that my uterine prolapse has improved slightly .I don't think it will ever go back to normal and it will always take alot of work to just keep it where it is now.

doubtful

November 8, 2010 - 5:43am

Thank you for your reply, and I'm so glad you are having some success with your prolapsed uterus. However, with respect I don't feel that 'age' or an 'advanced prolapse' applies to me yet. I'm forty six, way pre-menopausal and my body has been transformed with the whole woman workout in two months: I'm incredibly toned and flexible on the outside. Perhaps it has moved my uterus and bladder etc into even better positions as well. I just don't really see what toned muscles and ligaments are going to fo for what is essentially a small childbirth injury right at the entrance. The damage is done- but there is no organ in the bulge to pull forward-= I've pulled the urethra forward, if indeed it ever was in the bulge, I just can't seem to do anything about the bulge and it feels as if it is getting worse.

granolamom

November 8, 2010 - 12:18pm

fine, what I call my 'cystocele' is probably more likely a urethrocele too. for some reason its just easier for me to make friends with it if I call it my bladder.
I know what you're talking about, the urethra's not really 'in the bulge' but if feels like excess skin alone.
and I've been doing WW for a few years and my 'bulge' is still visible and present.
interestingly, I found my POP when my then youngest was 18 mo and he was also born with a nuchal hand (hand on his head, sticking out a bit).
while I have no doubt that my POP was partly due to birth injury I also believe that there were multiple causes.
so where am I now?
my urethrocele used to be peeking out and now its safely inside. all the time. I have no symptoms. its smaller than it used to be. now remember also, that I've gone on to have two more babies so that translates to roughly two years lost (not able to really do ww posture/nauli while pg and pp) plus additional birth stress.

did I stop it in its tracks? I think so.
is it reversing course? I think so.
am I confident that I am preventing further prolapse? yes.

I am holding on to hope that my bulge will continue to shrink. how, you ask? well, think of the sweater analogy. you leave a knit sweater hanging for years and then you want to wear it and you've got those annoying bumps sticking up atop your shoulders from the hanger. if you wear the sweater for a while (maybe a loooong while) eventually it changes shape and the bumps begin to disappear as the sweater remodels its shape after your contours. I am hoping that the same is true (to some degree) for fascia. it may take years, I don't know. and that's where the diet comes in. good food helps the body heal. good food helps the body build what it needs. so I don't see food as a magic pill here or directly influencing my bulge, but definitely it is an important support. I do see direct influence when I eat badly, too much dairy and caffeine make me feel awful, all around but also my POP. I haven't foudn that I lose too much weight eating this way. I am 5'5 and around 122 lb give or take a few. this was what I weighed on my wedding day, 13 years and 5 children ago. so I'm happy with that.

I cannot guarantee that this type of lifestyle will do anything for you. no one can. but we all know that eating good food and staying active is just plain good for your overall health. so I'd do it anyway.

a surgical nip/tuck of the vaginal wall is hardly something to look at nonchalantly. surgical incisions leave scar tissue and scar tissue in unpredictable. you could wind up with excessive tightening or adhesions leaving you in pain or unable to have intercourse. so not worth the risk, imo, especially if all we are talking about is a cosmetic issue, as is my case.

what are your current symptoms? why are you fearful of being active on your feet all day? are you doing the firebreathing and nauli?
and sounds like you've only been at this for a few months. honestly, I saw zero change for a loooong time. if you saw decrease in symptoms after only a few months, I say that's plenty reason to believe that you will continue to see progress.

kiki

November 8, 2010 - 2:31pm

Oh these stubborn prolapses!
Why won't they always listen to us? or do these as quickly as we want. It can feel super frustrating, I know. But, a few thoughts...
POP don't appear overnight, and don't disapear overnight. a few months isn't that long in the POP journey. when i got mine i decided i'd dedicate a year to really focusing on them, and the difference in a year was huge. but the difference from one month to the next was small...so i wouldn't get impatient yet.

you say your only symptom is the bulge. how bulgy does it feel? Just how much does IT bug you--rather than what bugs you being that it exists. I know that whlst the bulg really bugged me, what bugged me a lot as well was the the bulge reminded me the POP was there, and that that freaked me out. I decided to try to shift this in my head, and think positive thoughts about my POP and the bulgy sensations. I didn't send it annoyed thoughts, but rather calming accepting thoughts, thinking "this sensation is ok". that really helped me to feel less annoyed by the bulge. Now, it's annoying when i feel it, but it doesn't freak me out as i know it isn't going to get worse...and that helps get through it.

I now don't worry about being on my feet all day--lots of women here don't. what i eat is far more of an impact, but i get through that as well.

so hang in there, don't get depressed! give your body time to heal, and consider trying to focus on being accepting of your body. I'm not saying to use that to give up on improving your POP--but rather to feel less depressed about your body...

doubtful

November 9, 2010 - 3:53am

What lovely women, to write such thoughtful and encouraging responses, and so quickly! I really hope that in a few years I'll have the sense of indebtedness ( and be in the fortunate position from my own good experiences) to make time to be a regular helper to people who are just starting out. I used to think this website ( and the book) was way too touchy feely ( and 'alternative' ) for a cynical English academic like me, but I have found more reliable knowledge of anatomy and what can help ( and infinitely more understanding of the emotional impact of POP) here than on any of the medical sites or in any of the medical papers I have read.

KIki, you ask why does the bulge bother me, and I'd say purely because it frightens me that it might get worse and 'descend'. I can't feel it a lot of the time. In fact. when I'm walking I often feel as thought I'm almost floating (a result of all the ballet workouts from the book ?) and feel almost as good as when I'm in the seated positions. Interestingly, the times it feels heavy, it's often still tucked inside, and then I could be feeling great after an active period, but it's hanging out. The sensation would not bother me at all ( goodness, lots of women on this site are going through lots worse) if it was not for the tiny questioning voice at the back of my mind: are the doctors right, does prolapse always get progressively worse, especially for active women , should I be 'taking things easy'? . My gut instinct is to say of course not. I feel healthier than I have done in years: just be mindful, get on with life and forget about a llittle bulge.

It's just the syndrome of the Emperor's new clothes that we probably all have to struggle with. I am not anti conventional medicine, I have huge respect for the medical profession, as a whole ( and yet, so often, the questioning, educated woman in me refuses to be a passive patient, insists on asking awkward questions and finds the purely scientific approach of many doctors - well, just plain wrong and not always intelllectually rigorous at all) . And yet becuase we need doctors when we are very vulnerable, we hate to stand up and point out that sometimes, actually, they are less expert than the person experiencing the problem, that the Emperor is, on this occasion, stark naked.

Anyway, Granolamom and Kiki you've given me huge encouragement, ( I hope you feel the same Calley). Just a question about sponges: did either of you use them as a 'splint' during your healing journey? I thought they were wonderful, providing me with a 'safety harness' and then I suddenly felt that the vagina isn't actually designed to wear a large sponge tampon all the time, so perhaps, if a woman isn't uncomfortable without one, it can best do its 'remodelling work' if it's left to resume its natural shape.
Thanks again

Doubtful

granolamom

November 9, 2010 - 12:31pm

hi doubtful
no, I never wore the sponges or any other type of pessary. I did not need it for relief of discomfort and so I figured why stress out my already struggling vagina?
ideally, the vaginal canal is flat without any open space. the anterior and posterior walls should be in contact. a prolapse changes that and a pessary fills the space so that the bulge cannot. but I'd like to try to get things back to 'normal'.

I can relate to your fears of 'what if it gets worse'. and what if it does? what's the absolute worst case scenario? think about it. really if it is so bad that you cannot function, you can always try for a surgical approach later. however, with this approach, you are more likely to be successful with your anatomy unaltered by scalpel. maybe give yourself a real good time frame - say two years - in which you will devote to managing your prolapse in this way, at the end of which you can reassess your situation. In absence of major trauma, I highly doubt you will deteriorate so tremendously that there will be no return. and I suspect at the end of two years you will wonder why you ever considered surgery for this.
lets try to replace some of your fear with hope. its better for you : )
(I know, touchy-feely. I can't help it )

kiki

November 10, 2010 - 12:31am

HI Doubtful,
I too can relate to the what if feelings. But as Gmom says, what if? go to the worse case in your mind. when i first got my pop and a friend had me do that, it wasn't actually as bad as i thought it would be. I already had massive bulges. My absolute worse what if was something like "everything will fall out and i'll end up 100% incontinent". ok, no, that wouldn't be good...but then you have to say how likely is it to happen? (my dear friend by the way said ok, what if that happens? they make great producs--and no Kiki, you don't need to use washable items for that ;-) gotta love your friends)
ok, so back to my what if. how likely? even then, i knew not very likely. and even the doctors, midwives, physio were saying this will get a ton better. so that helped.
as things improved for me, my what if changed. I now know that realistically, my worst case is where i started--it wasn't good, but i lived. but honestly, unless i hurt myself so badly that i shocked my organs and i couldn't stand properly, i don't see anything getting much worse. maybe when i've super old and if i get osteoperosis which distorts my spine--but wow is that a long way off! so me, ms anxiety, isn't actually worrying --that hopefully gives you some reassurance!
so, here you are with a bulge that bugs you sometimes but not most of the time. i wouldn't say forget about it--you want to be mindful. otherwise you won't do the posture, eat well etc, and it could get worse. but if you are mindful, what is the likelihood it will get worse? what is the likelihood it will get better?

i definitely have that sag you talk about. i also just think of it as my bladder--easier. but my bladder is tucked hi inside, but if i go looking there is the rugged bit hanging out that i can push back in. but i wouldn't know it was there unless i go looking. my rect is more apparent. that i sometimes feel and i have to be mega aware of what i eat. but again, very very very super duper livable.

so, i hope that provides more reassurance.

sponges--tried right at the beginning for periods, but mine are too heavy. never did for support. use the odd tampon if my rect is being really annoying, but much less sine i went to NM to see Christine. everything is so much tighter--hurray!

hope that helps...
K