Burning Vulva

Hi Keh,

My plan is to start production on red clover salve (and maybe Bliss Balm) as soon as we are selling WWY2. I cannot make market-quality salve myself and want it produced by the same top-notch facility that made our original WW balms.

You are dealing with the same issues that have taken countless millions of aging women to doctors for HRT. The e-creams, patches and pills help some women some of the time. They also are being excreted into water systems everywhere and basically estrogenizing nature. Each woman must find her way through the hormone jungle (or not).

I was a healthy, sexually active woman until the age of 53. At that point I developed the most astonishing and somewhat horrifying (trying not to be dramatic here) vulva and anal symptoms, which I have written about extensively. Hopefully you have seen my paper, A Natural Remedy for Lichen Sclerosis, posted in the Library.

When I lost my natural estradiol (the most powerful antioxidant in the body), my body was exposed to existing imbalances the estrogen was keeping in check (I don't know how else to understand it). While the majority of post-menopausal women have dryness and some burning, I had un-godly pain, itching and skin discoloration.

After much study and experimentation I was able to bring the worst symptoms under control, but I still require anti-inflammatory herbs and oils as well as phytoestrogens to keep my condition manageable. I expect it will be this way for the long term, but I have read of these symptoms eventually resolving after many years, so I continue to hope.

What amazes me more than we who become symptomatic are those women for whom menopause simply means a cessation of menstruation. How lucky they are - but how does that happen? If you think about it, it is estradiol that matures the sex organs - a *huge* change from the pre-pubescent vulva/vagina!

When suddenly the faucet is turned off, what is to become of all the tissue that estrogen organized and built up? In my case it literally dried up and shrank to a shadow of its former self. My clitoris suffered the worst of it. I instinctively knew that supplemental hormones could not help, and might set me up for even worse disease.

Women are sexualized at all ages in our culture and there is a lot of shame associated with admitting one is no longer sexually active. In other cultures, India, for example, it is understood that the "Golden Years" are for spiritual development, as sex is a thing of the past. Sex would not be so widely considered at thing of the past if that reality were not supported by the physical facts of no longer being able to be sexually active.

I also hear stories about older women loving sex, which is awesome! My sense of it is that they must have strong adrenals to be producing the androgens necessary to keep the vulva and sex drive viable.

Granolamom is a young woman. There is really no comparison.

These are *facts of life* women are ashamed to talk about, but that we *must* talk about. Again, the medical system controls women's health in this area because only they have answers - "You'll be young again...just take these little pills!"

The truth is, we will never be young again and we must all find our own way to deal with that reality. A loving relationship with a conscious partner is the greatest gift at this stage in life.

Christine

Well, I think there must be a continuum between normal menopausal symptoms and LS symptoms that so commonly arise at menopause. Yes, exogenous hormones can cause disorganization of receptor fields, as seen in the vulvas of women who developed symptoms after being on birth control pills.

Menopausal insomnia can be terrible, but it does eventually settle down. For me, having to work with insomnia caused all sorts of lifestyle changes that boosted my health in general. This is a transition we all have to go through, unless we postpone it indefinitely with hormones, which is an individual choice. I know it's hard! :-/

Hi Keh

I can not stress strongly enough that foreplay, which increases arousal, is an essential part of sex for an older woman. A younger woman's vagina can physiucally tolerate lack of arousal. I find that I take longer to be aroused and longer to orgasm from scratch since menopause, and if I am not aroused enough, coitus feels like sandpaper and leaves me feeling burny and sore all day.
I would suggest a deep and meaningful chat with your partner, and (TMI coming up) and maybe find some other means of arousal prior to sex, if the old man just cannot be patient enough. It is your body. You have a right to make coitus comfortable for your body. Otherwise you might not want sex any more, and we can't have that! I think this is worth considering. If it doesn't work, you have lost nothing. If it does work, go for it!

This is completely different from a women literally losing interest in sex after menopause as some do.

There are a lot of women out there who only have sex to please their man, and that's quite sad, when with a little patience and ingenuity, they can become fully aroused, and orgasm, and really enjoy sex again, which is Win Win for both partners.

Louise

woah. trying to ingest all of this - I agree with you Christine, if this is a reality for so many women, it needs to be talked about more. those of us not yet at that stage should at least know what to expect.

how common is this condition? I always had the impression that things merely slow down as one ages, not come to a full. stop.
 
do men also have these golden years where they gradually become uninterested in sex? If the woman's faucet is suddenly turned off so that she is uninterested in sex and physically unable for it even if she were, wouldn't it cause a bit of imbalance to the relationship if her partner's libido is still alive and kicking? just trying to figure out how a woman would deal,..

I will try to answer your questions as best I can, which is only from my laywoman’s point of view. Like other areas of human sexuality, there remain huge gaps in our understanding - even after the 1960’s!

I would be shocked if valid numbers exist anywhere on the prevalence of LS. For decades gynecologists called it “rare”, which they no longer do because it most definitely is not rare - as the internet clearly revealed. If you take vulvodynia and LS together, we are talking about a significant population of women with severe inflammation of the vulva, clitoris and/or anus. If you add all the postmenopausal women with symptoms of dryness and burning, the numbers are huge. Where the border is between a condition like Keh’s and mild LS, I do not know. Men and children get this disease too, and all data points to hormonal causes.

These are not conditions of the vagina, but of the vulva, which seems to be fed by a not well-understood interaction between estrogen and testosterone. T is more important to the vulva than the vagina.

At menopause the ovaries shut down production of estradiol. This causes the feedback loop with luteinizing hormone to be opened up and for LH levels to skyrocket. One theory is these high levels of LH coax the ovaries to produce as much androgen as possible, which is turned into T and eventually into estrone. The adrenals also produce androgens. What we end up with as menopausal women are lower levels of both E and T, but the ratio is changed so that there is more T to E than in our younger years. This is what is thought to provide the “menopausal zest” that Margaret Mead was famous for describing (she didn’t say sexual zest - lol).

LH has many roles in the body, but its major qualities are anabolic and inflammatory. It stimulates the growth of nerve cells in the brain and vulva, yet is also responsible (according to certain researchers using good science) for the tangled masses of brain tissue in Alzheimer’s disease. It seems that neurons are stimulated in an unregulated way and end up spinning “cell stuff” uncontrollably. I believe a similar, if less unregulated, process occurs in the “spinning” of uterine fibroids. We often hear fibroids are fed by estrogen, but I believe they are actually stimulated by LH. Likewise, I believe LH plays a role in LS. Nowhere else in the female body (besides the brain) is there such a concentration of neurons than in the clitoris and vulva. This disease is clearly one of nerve inflammation and disintegration. The anal symptoms (which can be horrible) are a bit different and shorter lived as estrogen levels finally even out. We have anal scent glands that must be fed by estradiol - but the prudish nature of western science has not studied much on this subject.

Like most hormones, LH is secreted in a circadian rhythm and peaks around 2-4 am. These are the classic hours menopausal women are awakened because LH is antagonistic with our sleep hormone, melatonin. It is also when LS symptoms are at their worst. Come morning, T is peaking and symptoms lessen. Maximizing production of melatonin is critical, as it is the other most powerful anti-oxidant in the body and naturally lowers LH.

The whole thing is amazing!! Young women should not worry (worry increases cortisol, which intensifies the inflammation cascade), but they most certainly should be aware that this level of imbalance can happen at menopause! If I knew then what I know now, I would never have developed this disease.

But back to normal aging.

The adrenal layer that produces cortisol (our stress hormone) is right next to the layer that produces androgens and these layers decline and become less functional in older age. As I mentioned, I think stronger adrenals make the difference in those women who remain sexually active longer. Women can fall off an hormonal cliff or experience a gentle menopause, and all degrees in between.

However, I am going to venture a guess that by age 65 most women’s sex drive and ability to have intercourse are seriously waning. If some of us come to it earlier, it is a biological reality that has nothing to do with not wanting to be sexually active. However, without the intensity of desire, that reality becomes easier to bear. No woman should ever be shamed for this fact of life!

Men most certainly decline sexually as well, as witnessed by the Viagra saga. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the practice of urology were developed primarily in response to male impotence. But it is much more gradual and not unusual for a man to father a child in his eighties.

It is also a fact of human life that in most places in the world men traditionally took younger second and third wives. This is a taboo subject even to contemplate in our culture, but there it is.

I have also borne witness to men who gave up their sex lives in their thirties to remain loyal to women who lost theirs through hysterectomy/ovarian removal. The character of man can range from brutal to saintly.

Personally, the sweetness of developing spiritually is perfectly suited to this time in life. My husband and I have a love that has transcended the deepest wounds and greatest joys, and we constantly encourage each other to live each day to its fullest. We are intensely playful too!! The sex is all still there...but on a different level. ♥

Wow, this subject is where I'm at now. First, I wish writers would write words instead of LS,LH,T,E and lots of other letters that have meaning to the writer but maybe not to all of the readers. Am I alone on this topic? Back to burning, I have been on estradiol vaginal cream and suppositories for 2 weeks and have found the results amazing as the burning has decreased enough that I'm functioning normally. In 2 weeks I go for a pessary fitting. Now I'm wondering, at my age of 69 post hysterectomy, if my tissues will ever be tough enough to use one and have intercourse. My husband and I are loving and playful and enjoy sex in our"old age". I guess we are going to have to be very creative and inovative if I turn into a dried up prune! Thank you again, Christine for the great exercises on the DVD. They are a bandaid fix every morning before I go to work. I like the balance, lower body strength, and the posture. But by the end of the day I feel the pressure coming back. Hopefully, there will be come carryover as I continue to strengthen the pelvic area.

"The whole thing is amazing!! Young women should not worry (worry increases cortisol, which intensifies the inflammation cascade), but they most certainly should be aware that this level of imbalance can happen at menopause! If I knew then what I know now, I would never have developed this disease."

what would you have done (other than what you are doing now)? anything you would have avoided, thereby possibly preventing LS? how does one go about strengthening her adrenal glands for a smoother menopause transition? is it possible to achieve balance during this time period? I know you have that balance now (and I pray to God I can be so graceful then) but after what? It just doesn't make sense that a normal transition of life should be so difficult for so many women. 

I want to begin by expressing my deep gratitude to Christine for sharing such valuable information with us.

I was diagnosed with Lichen Sclerosis a few months ago. I had symptoms for about three weeks then it went into remission for one month. After eating sugar desserts the week of my birthday, the LS symptoms returned quite aggressively.

I am a healthy 53 year old woman, have been practicing and teaching yoga for 33 years, and have had a healthy diet since the age of 25. I am now in perimenopause and have now learned that LS and burning vulva symptoms can occur during menopause as the hormones shift to find a new balance. It is difficult to understand this condition and I promise that I will try to help others as I discover what works for me. I am thankful that I was diagnosed right away and have found this site and forum to learn more and share with others. Christine's article has been extremely helpful although some of it is difficult to understand. Thank you again Christine.

Does anyone know why the vulva inflammation comes on at night? I know from macrobiotics that organs of the body rejuvenate during different times of night. The liver rejuvenates at night so perhaps that contributes to it. Macrobiotics also says that all skin problems are a yin condition.

Since the symptoms returned about four weeks ago, I began drinking red clover tea daily. I have red clover capsules and a tincture for times when I am away from home and cannot make tea. I am taking a probiotic, borage oil, and an adrenal support supplement. I had stopped eating soy products this year because I found that I was bloating with the menopause situation. Clearly, the Lichen Sclerosis condition is more serious than a puffy belly so I am introducing tofu and soy back into my diet. Flax seeds are also a good source of food estrogen so I will find creative ways to sprinkle and ingest these little guys.

I know that this is going to be a new lifestyle and not a quick fix. I do wonder how long it may take to calm the symptoms after introducing these things into my diet. It seems that when I am hungry and need to eat, the symptoms increase and when I eat, the symptoms dissolve. It is perhaps associated with my blood sugar levels.

I will share again when I have more experiences with the supplements and dietary changes. May we all have strength, wisdom and courage.

CB, I think it was different when women were living more natural lives. However, let’s be clear that the transition is very significant. For Pete’s sake, the vagina goes from acidic to alkaline! The smell completely changes (TMI coming up) and part of the change for many women is a very rank odor for a period of time. Thank goodness that symptom resolves, as total body odor declines as well. I rarely use deodorant anymore because it’s just not necessary (at least I don’t think so - lol)

I was diagnosed with lichen sclerosis (all STDs ruled out) and have many symptoms of that disease, but I also think my particular case leans toward lichen planus (yes, there are even worse vulva conditions!). LS comes in two varieties - with and without little painful, itchy bumps, but these diseases are not well understood or defined. Over the years I have come to believe I have lichen planus in addition to LS. The mystery deepens....

Well into nursing school (I was in my late thirties) I developed a patch of bumps on one elbow. I showed it to my pathophysiology teacher and she said she had the same bumps on her elbow and to dab a little cortisone cream on and forget about it. A big, ugly wart popped out in the middle of my cheek during this time too. I had it promptly removed and it was diagnosed as some sort of neural tumor. I cannot recall the exact timeline, but this would’ve been approximately the same time we were all heavily immunized to work in the hospital. Hepatitis B series was one of those immunizations.

The little patch of bumps came and went through the years, spread to both elbows, but were never much of a bother. However, the LS eventually turned into little bumps identical to the ones on my elbow. They have waxed and waned through the years just like the others. I was a mad-woman trying to figure out what in the world I had. At some point I googled “hepatitis B vaccine lichen planus” and found out a whole slew of people developed LP after the hep B vaccine. ugh!!! I haven’t said anything about this before because I didn’t want to confuse the issue of common LS.

I think we have to understand the level of naiveté we all have around things like vaccines, surgeries, and blood transfusions. I mentioned earlier that I received a unit of blood when I miscarried a pregnancy. Years before nursing school my GP was scratching his head because my blood panel was not normal. This was in the days of rampant HIV and he was alarmed to hear about the transfusion. Luckily I was OK.

I was going through a box of old stuff yesterday and found my infant immunization record! I had "everything" at six months of age. Then there were all the polio vaccines through the years, some of which are now known to have carried a simian virus that causes neuro cancers.

But back to normality (sort of)...

I have had a hard life. I was hysterical for decades and balanced that state of mind with hyperactivity and over-achieving. It took a Navajo weaving teacher to tell me how wrong it is to push ones self like that. Adrenal health means watching stress levels and paying close attention to the myriad of other things we know create health.

I wouldn’t worry about LS. I would factor into a young relationship that you are both going to grow older, a state of health and well-being that may be more emotional, intellectual and spiritual than sexual. It’s just a fact of life.

Christine

Welcome, Surya,

I am happy my research is reaching so many people with this disorder.

As I said in my previous response to Chickaboom, I think high levels of luteinizing hormone, or LH, begin the process of LS. They stir up the inflammatory cellular process and it goes downhill from there. LH levels are highest at night and this is when symptoms are worst. Testosterone (yes, this is a female hormone, too) levels are highest in the morning - when our symptoms are most mild. Melatonin, our sleep hormone, is the natural antagonist to LH. Sound sleep in a darkened room is essential. If you wake up in the wee small hours, say a mantra or do a calming visualization until you fall back to sleep. It is important not to get up and turn on the lights, as light will shut down melatonin production.

The Yin diagnosis makes perfect sense. Sugar is as yin as it gets and an adrenal poison. I look back on my younger self as someone with a yin imbalance - weepy, watery, and weak. Red clover will address this imbalance.

Thanks so much for sharing your story and I look forward to hearing how you do.

Wishing you well,

Christine

Thank you Christine for the information about lutinizing hormones. So interesting and helpful.

I can actually sense a difference in the symptoms at sunset. It is as if the sun leaves the sky and begins to burn me. Fortunately I sleep very well at night. I have noticed when the LS symptoms are present, I have to urinate more frequently. Consequently, I have to get up at least once a night to empty my bladder. I use coconut oil after each urination. This really helps. In ayurvedic medicine coconut oil is recommended for pita conditions to pacify too much heat. I am usually able to drift back to sleep easily.

I introduced soy back into my diet yesterday and inserted a gel cap probiotic into the vagina last night. I have had a very good day! It was a very calm cool day down south, even in mid-August.

Self healing is possible, probable, and empowering. Wisdom is power.

thanks for your account Christine.

I found an old thread about menopause experiences, spanning a few years: http://www.wholewoman.com/drupal-6.16/node/1512

Interesting stuff. I understand my mom more now. I was too critical sometimes. I think the menopause diary is a great idea.

I'm not worried about full blown LS but, like you said, it's a continuum and most post menopausel women have some degree of dryness etc. If that does happen to me, I hope to be having too much fun with fat grandbabies to worry about the old man - said affectionately, borrowed from Louise. :)

I have been staying away from fruit for the past few months since being diagnosed with Lichen Sclerosis. I am wondering if the natural sweetness of my favorites... watermelon, prunes, figs, bananas, and raisins would aggravate the condition. Does anyone have experience with this?

Applying yogurt directly on the vulva when it is inflamed has helped me. I started taking turmeric a few times a day for inflammation. This seems to be beneficial as well.

I want to make sure I understand this.

When you say that melatonin is a natural antagonist to luteinizing hormones (LH), do you mean that melatonin attacks and decreases the effects of LH. Consequently, melatonin helps decrease the symptoms of Lichen Sclerosis?

While researching, I found that St. John's Wort promotes melatonin. I am wondering if drinking SJW tea or taking a supplement at night time might help with symptoms. What is your feeling about this?

Hi Surya,

I wouldn't say attacks, but melatonin lowers LH because of natural hormonal feedback loops. Melatonin also blocks or reverses inflammation, which high levels of LH promote. These two hormones reach peak levels at the same time of night. Supporting the natural release of melatonin is one important factor in controlling LS symptoms. There are no magic bullets and supplemental melatonin carries risks - like shutting down your own melatonin production.

I have very little experience with SJW. Please let us know if you experience any positive result with it.

Christine

Christine wrote: The whole thing is amazing!! Young women should not worry (worry increases cortisol, which intensifies the inflammation cascade), but they most certainly should be aware that this level of imbalance can happen at menopause!

--

I've been reading Caffeine Blues by Stephen Cherniske. The author talks a lot about the effect caffeine has on our bodies (takes 12 hrs for the liver to detoxify 1 cup of coffee; takes up to three wks for stress levels to go back to normal after that one cup - assuming of course that you don't drink another one meantime). He mentions the overstimulating effect caffeine has on the adrenals and how, with habitual caffeine consumers, the adrenals are basically in overdrive all the time. He mentions over and over that caffeine harms everyone but women more so than men. So I was thinking about menopause symptoms and caffeine. You know, young woman consuming caffeine every day of her young life, young woman becoming middle aged, middle aged woman going through one difficult pause bc her adrenals and entire hormone system is shot. All that caffeine, all those years. Almost every single woman I know consumes caffeine of some kind every single day.  It's easy for me to believe this because I'm one of those people who loves the taste of coffee but gets high after drinking one tablespoon of percolated grounds. And a square of dark chocolate has been known to instantly cure a headache. so it is doing something to me, for better or worse.

Symptoms such as described by keh remind me of symptoms that I have if I drink coffee, any carbonated beverages, or eat any foods with spices. Also, these symptoms appear if I forget to take my interstitial cystitis medication.
The pain is a relentless, burning ache and don't even come near me with a plan for sex!
I forgot to take my Detrol LA for two days and have had a glass of iced coffee. I couldn't work today, my inversion bench time (3 minutes) didn't help, I couldn't even go for a walk.
Yesterday may have been a day of overdoing, but I wonder if the pain isn't all more ICystitis than POP.
Tomorrow I hope to have figured it out. For now I am sitting on a towel-wrapped ice pack which is a bit helpful.
A gynecologist can do a test (might be called potassium test) to determine if IC is an issue and can prescribe medication. I was prescribed Elmiron and Detrol LA. I chose not to take the Elmiron but do take the Detrol LA daily, unless I forget!
I hope this helps keh a little.
Daphne

Daphne, I think it is worth your while doing your own detective work, and enlisting the help of your doctor too. Pelvic pain of any sort is notoriously hard to pin down. Many a woman has had hysterectomy or pelvic repairs, only to find that the original pain remains after the post-op period, and/or new pain and discomfort appears.

I hope you can resolve it with reasoning and appropriate medication, bit by bit. Sorry if one of my posts suggested that more regular, and slower, you know what would fix it. It is just one factor, not the holy grail.

Louise

Hellooo Louise,
I just want ice cream AND the holy grail - the quick fix. I know it's not coming. I get the feeling that my type A driven personality needs a hug. Retirement from 'public service-show up at 730AM' was supposed to help! You know, my life is calmer now than it's been in decades and I keep fussing...
This prolapse and IC all come as such a shock and I'm really angry about it all.
I like your words 'bit by bit.' I received my WWvideo for Prolapse today but it does not work in my Windows 7 laptop. So, I'm contacting the WWStore for an upgraded copy. Hope there is one. I expect the book any day now.
Thanks L,
Daphne

I would try it in a different Windows 7 laptop, and also use a different DVD player on the same machine. There are various different players other than windows Media Player, (eg Real Player, also free), before sending it back and requesting another.

Also, make sure you do your Windows Updates each Wednesday. I have recently found that Windows Updates have been really upsetting my computer in lots of ways. I sometimes have to reboot a couple of times after doing these updates, because I think other programs realise you have the latest Windows updates, then they have to get their own updates to match them. A pain. :-(

The DVD may also be at fault.

it is an eye-opener to see such varying responses

:-)
w2k

I am also happy that you have directed me to this link!
What Christine is saying about inflammation is interesting, in early menopause she talks about inflammation of the vulva as well as the anus. I need to know more about this as it may explain what I am experincing with my lower back, there is definite inflammation and stiffness. Could this possibly be the results in my body of going into menopause.
And her first comments concerning sex are soo helpful and much appreciated. Amazing!
I need to make a phone consultation even if it is costly. My, what a wealth of knowledge she has!
Thanks for the (thread).

I am also happy that you have directed me to this link!
What Christine is saying about inflammation is interesting, in early menopause she talks about inflammation of the vulva as well as the anus. I need to know more about this as it may explain what I am experincing with my lower back, there is definite inflammation and stiffness. Could this possibly be the results in my body of going into menopause.
And her first comments concerning sex are soo helpful and much appreciated. Amazing!
I need to make a phone consultation even if it is costly. My, what a wealth of knowledge she has!
Thanks for the (thread).

I am also happy that you have directed me to this link!
What Christine is saying about inflammation is interesting, in early menopause she talks about inflammation of the vulva as well as the anus. I need to know more about this as it may explain what I am experincing with my lower back, there is definite inflammation and stiffness. Could this possibly be the results in my body of going into menopause.
And her first comments concerning sex are soo helpful and much appreciated. Amazing!
I need to make a phone consultation even if it is costly. My, what a wealth of knowledge she has!
Thanks for the (thread).

that it helps you, Rose. There was so much of what I read here the other day that seemed to apply to your situation (mixed in with all the stuff that probably doesn't).

It has been my experience also, as I get a bit older, that I MUST allow myself to totally enjoy foreplay so that I am properly lubricated and ready for penetration. That means, relaxing, enjoying, setting aside fear of pain, taking it slowly and making sure that all is ready and that hubby is careful in everything he does too. Then and only then do we both get full satisfaction

:-)
w2k

Thank you for your help, it's funny after finding this link and reading what Christine had to say about her experience with menopause seemed to open up something within me and this morning the pain in my lower back is not as bad as usual! I would like to find out more aout this inflammation she was talking about. When I would go to the Chiropractor some months ago he would say 'I wonder what is causing this inflammation'? And now I am beginning to feel it is the way my body is adjusting to menopause at this particular time, and that it is going to get better and start regulating itself as I just keep healthy and doing the herbs and such.
Thank you for your help, it has been amazing!
And now I am going to go back to bed as it is early in the morning here and try to get close to my husband, I find with all these issues I have been having with my physical body that there is definitely a physical distance and barrier between us. It is hard to balance it out with him because he is not a hugger and cuddler, once I get close it's all or nothing.
I read some of a book by 'Erma Bombeck' It's title, 'If Life is a bowl of cherries, what am I doing in the pits'?
It was great and so funny! We really need to find the pleasure in life as we go towars our personal journey through menopause. Thank you again for your help and I will let you know how it goes with my husband.

Rose. My hubby is exactly the same -- all or nothing. So it has been difficult to try to balance everything. Fortunately for me, before I had travelled very far in the uncertain waters of perimenopause and prolapse, I found this site and was encouraged to continue on with sex -- carefully.

We are still working things through, and I'm sure you and your hubby can too.

(btw -- it's true that full penetration can feel very comfortable for prolapse -- it's like a well-fitted pessary)

:-)
w2k

Hi Ladies -

I posted some time ago after getting the DVD on Vulva Health. Unfortunately, the honey and vinegar did not work for me - at all. I started a high soy diet, eating three to four servings of soy per day in addition to eating two tablespoons of ground flaxseed on my morning cereal. I read a report (on another website) that after being on a high soy diet for two to three months, some women have had a return to pre-perimenopaual vaginal moisture. Can this really be true? Has anyone had such positive results and how much soy is adequate to achieve this?

Also, I read a post indicating that red clover should only be taken once a women is post menopausal. Can someone explain why?

Marric

I'm post menopausal now for nearly ten years, but I've continued to take a supplement with soy isoflavones and black cohosh that helped me get through menopause. It contains a blend of other supplements I've found useful and helped with hot flashes at night after all the other symptoms and problems had passed. I cut down on the amount, taking it every other day instead of daily, and it only contains 55 mg of the soy. However, after taking it regularly for several years I suppose that could be considered a maintenance dose. I've suspected since I've been reading about the dryness some women here have suffered that the supplement has helped me to avoid a problem with dryness. A bonus has been my interest in soybeans caused me to try to grow some and have had edamame to put in the freezer for the past two years. They're a great tasting snack with a little salt and pepper and easy to prepare.

As for red clover, the contraindications I read that would suggest not using it before menopause seem to involve a possible risk of sterility in some animals (no testing done on humans), some blood thinning property so that it shouldn't be used with Vitamin E or other blood thinners, and that it mimics estrogen and can affect hormone levels (especially if taken with birth control pills or hormone replacement therapy for example). Using it in an extracted form (like a capsule) rather than in tea also makes a difference. It can be stronger in pill form. It's important to keep in mind that herbal supplements can be powerful and to be cautious in trying something new. I am taking red clover blossoms in capsule form (430 mg). The package recommends taking 5 or 6 a day, but I only take one. (I am for some reason very responsive to medications of all kinds; it's way too easy for me to take too much of something.) Generally, the only vulvar inflammation I've had has involved overheating (sweating) and overdoing (too much standing or lifting), and the red clover has helped with that. The more chronic inflammation of the skin around my perineum and anus is dramatically improved since I started taking it, and I haven't noticed any side effects at all.....but then I'm post-menopausal, so.....

This information doesn't directly answer your questions, but I hope it may be somewhat helpful.

Does anyone know 'what and why' women have inflammation in their feminine organs when entering menopause?? I am also taking Red Clover capsules as I have heard they help with reducing fibroids in and around the uterus. I do not know yet if they are shrinking mine but the Red Clover may be helping with the hot flashes. I am having hot flashes but they are mostly mild, so perhaps the Red Clover is helping with that. But the inflammation is the thing that has me confused. It feels inflammation is everywhere, why???

If I remember correctly it was noted that Japanese women on a whole do not find menopause as much an uncomfortable stage of their life as some women in the west do. A possible explanation for this difference was put down to diet and cultural influence for want of any better explanation. With the west fixated somewhat on estrogen during menopause, and soy being a phyto-estrogen, and not eaten much in the west, it stood out as being the likely source of food in the diet which affected hormones although it is debatable whether in Japan this was a consideration in thek way the west is now treating it. Soy is a phyto-estrogen, as is red clover, – a plant source of the hormone estrogen which means that it can disrupt hormone balances for both genders.
I don’t know the other site you refer to and so don’t have any idea of the dosage they suggest. A high soy diet puts me in mind of a soy shake, a soy yoghurt or soy cheese or tofu in one day. I tried bread with bran, soy, and linseed (mostly two thick slices per day x 7 days) to see if it helped during menopause, but found it messed with my periods, sparse though they were getting, I did not want to encourage them to hang around any longer than need be.
So it depends whether you want to try Soy or Red clover for three months to find out whether it returns you to pre-menstrual moistness and perhaps helps with insomnia or hot flushes and does not do anything else detrimental, then see if this moisture is maintained or whether it requires a continued maintenance dosage and then decide whether in light of the other information including a possible effect on Vitamin D absorption whether it is the right way for you to go. Everyone is different after all.

Here are the things (worst effects/scenario) which worry some people about soy. Anecdotally, organic fermented soy is said to be eaten in very small amounts in Japan; basically it is a condiment. If you do not ferment soy it is rich in phytates or phytic acid which can block absorption of minerals, especially calcium, magnesium, copper iron and zinc. Soy is also full of trypsin inhibitors which can interfere with protein digestion and cause pancreatic disorders. It may impair thyroid function. It’s new to the human diet and more especially the west probably only eaten by this present generation. It’s genetically modified in the USA.
Post menopausal, I use red clover only rarely but find it beneficial when I do for moistening. However, I find regularity of both bowel and bladder a better inducement to a moist vulva/vagina and of course lubrication. Also note that I personally have not had this inflammation that you speak of and this must be seriously taken into account when you read my comments.

Good luck

I'm possibly getting things a little muddled, but I was under the impression that estrogen helped fibroids grow and the reason they shrunk with menopause was the lessening of estrogen in the body. So I wonder if it is wise to be taking a phyto-estrogen in the form of red clover tablets?

Everything I've read about Red Clover and estrogen indicates that they feed the fibroid, and the reason that fibroids reduce after menopause is that the body is producing less estrogen.

:-)
w2k

Phyto estrogens actually act more like estrogen blockers. I can recall some good posts by Louise that describe how they "take up the parking spaces". I won't search for them now, but this is something you can read up on. - Surviving

Louise can direct us to that research?

Fab, I have come across many things in books and on the internet regarding phytoestrogens as weak estrogens that actually serve as estrogen blockers. On this forum it has been discussed many times. I'm not the expert. Here is one particular thread in which Christine herself explains it in simple terms. There is much to search on.

https://wholewoman.com/forum/node/3725

but if you have estrogen positive fibroids, you would still be wise to avoid phyto estrogen. It is when you have symptoms of estrogen depletion like dryness as in post menopause that a phyto estrogen would help. The red clover tablets are for inflammation of the vulva/vaginal areas like in cases of LS or for dryness.

Thank you for your comments, but I am a little confused? I have heard comments from women over the internet about dissolving large fibroid tumors by taking red clover. I know it is a blood purifyer but now I am not sure if I should keep taking it or not.?
I am not into soy and never have been, and I do not like tofu. I have heard more negative comments concerning soy than positive.
I have also with the red clover capsules been taking 2 to 4 capsules of tumeric a day, it is suppose to help with inflammation and I have heard it is also a cancer preventative.
I actually find my condition is better right now than worse.
I am just afraid of intimacy with my husband, and I think he is also. I am trying to talk to him about it but it is not easy for me. When I am laying in bed especially when I first wake up in the morning I have hot flashes and start sweating. Not exactly the best feeling for intimacy?

Thanks for bringing up the node 3725. I followed it to another which recommended reading the article on a natural cure for lichen sclerosis and found the article has been replaced with an ad for the DVD. I wonder if it's still available in article form within the website. I've been looking (and as usual found lots of interesting things to read), but I haven't been able to find it.

This subject has me going....worrying about taking too much phytoestrogens, comforted by the suggestion that they can be blockers, glad to have relief from my skin inflammation...so I'd like to learn more without trying to afford the DVD.

Thanks to you, too, Fab. You're always a wealth of information.

Bebe, you are correct about the article, I looked as well. You might want to contact WW directly and see if they can send it to you. - Surviving

From all I have read here, and other research, it seems like the phytoestrogens smooth out estrogen imbalance, whether that be too much or too little. If there is too little estrogen, the weaker phytoestrogens help by binding to the estrogen receptors, so although not as strong as estrogen they provide an easing of the menopausal symptoms of too little estrogen. If there is too much estrogen, they help by binding to the receptors, preventing the stronger estrogen from doing so which then allows it to be excreted from the body (easing some of the perimenopausal symptoms). And I think that the phytoestrogens bind to a particular receptor which is quite prevalent in the vulval area.

But as to fibroids after menopause, perhaps the extra estrogen provided by the phytoestrogens, even though weaker, would be contraindicated when the goal is to shrink the fibroid due to less estrogen. That would one of the benefits of less estrogen ... which would be great if it didn't come with a host of other annoying symptoms. Good luck researching it. You would think that science would have a better grasp of these things but it doesn't seem to be very clear cut.

What I am wondering is how many different types of sclerosis are there? And can they happen when a women is getting into menopause.? I looked just the word sclerosis up in the dictionary and it seems it means an abnormal hardening of body tissues. And this is also what a fibroid is, and it may be related to the inflammation happening to many women during menopause, or right before?
But when you add the word 'lichen' to sclerosis it changes the meaning.

I’m still not sure about phyto-estrogens being blockers as you put it Bebe. But being post menopausal I can’t see red clover being anything other than a help to you. The concern was for someone who has estrogen positive fibroids taking estrogen supplements when the necessary priority one would think would be to shrink the fibroid first and worry about flashes and dryness second. But then it is not my business really. And thanks for your explanation Hockey mum. But Christine’s article which Bebe speaks of is an excellent one and talks about LS as a disease of altered hormone balance and so discusses estrogens and shows that we should be looking more to glycogen when considering vulva/vagina health and more specifically in regards to the treatment of LS and certainly worth getting a copy of if you can. Although, the DVD builds on the research of the article and is a broader approach to vulva/vagina health and worth the doolah. So Rose it seems you are correct in seeing connections with menopause and the effects of changes in hormones.

Can anyone tell me how to figure out whether my pain is coming from the vagina or the urethra? I have a history of bladder problems and I can't tell what I should be treating. I read to add apple cider vinegar to my bath water for vulvar pain but I have believed that the bladder requires a slightly alkaline environment. It doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone help?

Apple cider vinegar is applied directly to the skin as an anti fungus for the treatment of things like LS. Christine suggests a 1:1 dilution directly onto the vulva. If you have no fungal infection then you would not need it. As aches and pain relief Epsom’s salts or magnesium has often been suggested to be added to your bathwater. To restore health to the vulva/vagina after menopause Christine recommends a pea size amount of local honey be applied to the vulva twice a day. If you think that your are too alkaline then an acidic probiotic would be a good way to go. I can’t help you much on the alkaline/acidity situation as it simplifies things a bit but our gut is mostly acidic. But if you think you may be suffering from Candida then its overgrowth relies on increased alkalinity (reduced acidity) in your stomach and intestines. Otherwise, your digestive system is naturally acidic and I would think so too would be your bladder, but I am not discounting your belief it requires a slightly alkaline environment, because the plain fact is I don't know enough science. With the natural process of aging, the gut becomes more alkaline less acidic and if this causes problems then a more suitable diet of course helps for full body health and this is where Christine talks about the spices such as turmeric and cinnamon and the minerals such as magnesium, zinc etc. I cut way back on bladder irritants such as coffee and also too much fruit can make things alkaline, so to me its a complex area and I think you would need to approach your situation bit by bit.

Thanks for your help. The reason I thought the bladder needed alkaline liquids is because originally I was diagnosed with interstitial cystitis by a urologist and told to drink alkaline water plus eat no acid foods. then I went to a Urogynecologist and she said I do not have IC but do have prolapse of all 3 organs but did not recommend surgery. So I am confused - can prolapse cause burning vulva ? If it can, I can assume the pain is coming from the vagina, not the urethra, and that will make it easier to figure out what to do. I have ordered Christines's DVD on the vulva. There is only one complication. I had a large tumor in my breast and my oncologist will not let me drink red clover tea or any thing that would affect my tumor marker test.

A prolapse in itself would normally not cause a burning vulva. A prolapsed uterus can rub on the vulva and irritate it. I hope you are using a lubricant of some kind for if you are dry and there is a possibility of friction with three prolapses it could become very uncomfortable. To help moisturize things, there are coconut oil, olive oil, and Vaseline and to cool things some pure non sugar added yoghurt. Especially if you make the effort to apply one of these which you find suits you best after each urination and when you go to bed at night. You should apply the raw local honey as well twice daily. These will help locally as you cannot have the red clover tea because of your breast tumour. I am really sorry you have to go through this. Glad you have ordered Christine’s DVD. There is not a lot out there and she gives good reasoning as to why she suggests certain things. I certainly hope that you find a solution to all of this. I guess you would have had the candida and UTI checked out already and so a sore urethra (if it were stingy sore) could point to acid foods which you are still probably refraining from, whereas an aching one would suggest it is perhaps pushed out of place? I really don't know BecCon and so yes I agree you need to look at one thing at a time and eliminate each possibility as you go.

Thanks so much, Fab. It really helps to have my choices narrowed down, for example, your comment that a prolapse in itself would not cause a burning vulva. I do use coconut oil and it helps a lot. Yesterday I received Christine's DVD and ran out to the health food store and bought white willow bark tea, made it pretty strong, and made a sitz bath with it and sat on it and read a book. After a while I noticed the pain go away, then the irritation and realized IT WORKED !! Until then I hadn't realized the pain and irritation were caused by inflammation what a relief !

Hi I was just wondering if anyone has used or heard of PhytoB?
I know it is for women and hormonal issues but I understand it contains estrogen and did not know if that was ok to take while trying to dissolve a fibroid tumor??