Surgery or No Surgery

It is indeed good fortune that you have found us. I hope some of the women who have had hysterectomy will be able to at least tell you their story so you can get a realistic picture of whether or not this work will help you. Success with managing POP without surgery when a woman has had hysterectomy is less common but not impossible, because the many of the tissues that are cut during hysterectomy have a role in supporting the other pelvic organs, so you have less support left. However, at this stage rectocele appears to be the main problem.

There are several things you can do to help prevent it worsening. The first is to amend your diet in ways that will keep your stool soft and keep your bowel contents moving along, so you don't have to strain at all when emptying your bowel. The second thing you can attempt to do is to try and keep excess large intestine out of your pelvic cavity, which will help prevent your rectum from being squashed down further. Inversion exercises like firebreathing and nauli, which create a vacuum in the abdomen may help suck your intestines up and forward where they are less likely to squash your rectum and get into lots of bends which may prevent your emptying properly.

Worry is a great constipator, so learning all you can about how you can be in charge of this, rather than the other way around, will help you to be the boss of your body, and to continue to advocate for it.

The research shows that the second and subsequent surgical repairs have a lower likelihood of success than the first. You are right to be questioning whether further surgery will give you better outcomes. A Forum on a site like Hystersisters will give you plenty of insight into the group of women who have multiple surgeries and have subsequent difficulties, but of course if there are women who do not have difficulties it is unlikely that they will post on those sites.

It must be unnerving to have received the same advice from three different doctors. It is not surprising though, as they have no other tools to help you. As blunt as these tools might be they can hardly say that they cannot help you at all, even though the next repairs may leave you wishing you had not taken those three opinions as being definitive.

I suggest you give Wholewoman work a serious try for six months to a year and only decide then whether any improvement has been worthwhile. Using your body in safer ways, cleaning up your overall posture, wearing loose clothing around your belly, improving your diet and finding out all you can about your body will stand you in good stead, whether or not you decide eventually to have further surgical repairs.

Hope to hear some more from you.

Louise

Hi Tova:
I sympathize with you and the surgical date of July 13. It is a dilemna. I would be in a quonundrum.

I really like Louiseds advise to you--

I was on this site and working in an industrial site in 2005-6 I did not seriously absorb all the details of the "PLAN" My computer broke down..
I was advise a hyst by 1 ob/gyn and then a 2nd obgyn-- and then a walk in clinic doctor ""Good God Girl what are you wating for have it fixed""
All my relatives with their trust in God and Doctors (tired of my self absorpion) told me to have surgery--- I had it - It was painful-- I went back to the industrial setting where I lifted and pushed and pulled and was busy both there and at home. Shovelling snow, trrimming hedges, carrying kids and then the sutures, abdominally placed came thru my poor vagina-- Then the mesh of the sacralcolpopexy got infected and after another dilemna of whether to hve or not have surgery- I had the mesh removed. They can now do a posterior and anterior repair, a mini-arc procedure, compltete cervical excision, and suture to one of the pelvic bones BUT may cause bowel and bladder problems.
I BELIEVE my busy life simply needed to be stopped.... and that is now the case- I am now using a pessary which simply keeeps everything up- the downside is no sex for now and of course the chronic discharge(puslike) as a result of the failed mesh treatment. The top notch ob/gyn said the 1st operating doctor should have let me try a pessary. Sometimes the pessary bothers me - rite now it does not- I think it is the bowel contents---What Louised has said in her reply is not sthg any doctor told me but is so true for me-- keeping things like squash, carrots, bran, apples, berries - lite stuff, in my system and trying to keep bowel emply ...
There is a lot of perceptions here on this site and some of it may be born of imaginings and frustration but if you read thru it- I think you will get a sense of truth and helpfullness. Time changes perspective sometimes.
Truthfully, I think I enjoyed the attention surgery and hospitalization gave me- but here I am problem unsolved with a total of 5 incisions in my abdomin, a strange discharge, i bleed if i do anything strenuous... NON of these conditions would be mine if i had NEVER seen a doctor... A llittle learning is a dangerous thing...
Also in case you don't catch the phrase- your pelvic floor may be like a basket which if you hold the contents rite- will stay in the basket... a proud stand with chest up ... I am still trying to master it....
Peace in your efforts-- we are all alone in some decisions.. whatver way you go I wish you wellness

I only know this from my own experience, and that of my son, Tova. I believe it is to do with elevated adrenalin levels, which move blood supply to the heart, lungs, legs and arms for fighting and fleeing, and away from number-crunching activities like digestion which can be slowed for a while to free energy for fleeing and fighting. Slowing the flow means that more water gets pulled out of your intestines because food is in there for longer. It makes a great deal of sense to me.

I would also consider the occasional use of a fleet enema if you get really bound up.

I am sure that the more you learn, the more comfortable you will be with making the decision, and you will be freed of the fear you currently have. Once the fear cycle is broken I think your body will work more smoothly.

I have heard it said many times that OBGyns deliver babies when a woman is young and repair the damage when they are older. I think much of this repair surgery is their income for retirement. They seem to sit there like crows on a fence, just waiting for the inevitable as a woman ages. This is called a 'trusting and lifelong relationship with your gyn'. While it is great to have a trusting and long term relationship with the doctor who looks after our very private reproductive and sexual organs, which anthropologically and historically have a stigma attached to them, I can't help thinking the benefit is often one way. But I would think that, now I am a cynical old crone!! Forgive me.

Louise

Sammy...your honesty is always so refreshing and heartwarming. One of the "themes" I noticed early on from women who opt for surgery time and again is the attention it seems to bring from the people around them. The psycho-drama can become pretty intense...women falling in love with their surgeons as they become further and further incapacitated through futile surgeries. It's a real phenomenon and something all women should be aware of.

Hi,

So much to think about and weigh up. It feels impossible to know who to listen to, who to trust and what the right answers are for YOU.

I find it interesting that your gyno supports having surgery for your quality of life BECAUSE you are young. My understanding is that once you have a surgery your risk of needing a 2nd surgery is greatly, greatly increased (I think it could be something as high as 75% - but others will know the actual figures). For me (and I am newly diagnosed at 38yrs) this is one reason to hold off having surgery for as long as possible (if that is a track I decide to take). I have decades and decades of life to get through. If I start having surgery now, even if I only needed a further surgery once every 10 years, I could potentially need 5 or 6 major operations in my life time.

I haven't ruled out surgery all together but if it is something I decide to do, I am planning to 'hold off' as long as possible.

Can others shed some light on this with actual facts and figures???

Hi Toya

As one teacher to another, I was in the same position as you - trying to work out when I could pay out vast amounts for major surgery with the least inconvenience to my employers. Nearly a year later I am so well and active, with such an improvement to my prolapse symptoms, that I personally would not touch the surgery unless something very dramatic happened. I learned to deal with the panic and to learn how to look after my body but it took time and lots of reading here.

Nobody can decide for you, but I would urge you to take your time and educate yourself. POP doesn't tend to get dramatically worse suddenly. I gather it can be more problematic for post hysterectomy women than for others but I believe even many of them have experienced stabilization with the whole woman approach. Can any whole women who have had a hysterectomy come in here and offer Tova their experiences?

I was told at 47 that I should rush to have a first surgery because I would heal beautifully. When I mentioned the failure and re-operation statistics to my doctor she said she couldn't give me figures bit that that might not happen to me. I didn't find that reassuring and am very glad I decided to try the whole woman approach. It has made a measurable difference to me and pop has very little impact on my life now.

These forums were a godsend for me, so please keep asking and there is usually someone who has the relevant experience to help.

Doubtful

Oh, Sammy, it all sounds so discouraging. I'm new at all this. Your brave and sensitive honesty to these issues we face is so encouraging. Thank you.
Daphne

(((Dear Folk)))
I thought you might be interested in my doc's response at my visit 6 months into WW regime when I reported progress at managing Pop.
I took along the book and DVD. This is in the UK and I hope the GPs here (mine's a woman) will be as approachable and open minded as mine is.
She was genuinely pleased to hear of an approach that was not surgical. After all she is the one who has to hear from those women who go back to her and are no better after surgery. Christine's work will gradually be better known and take off here in the UK I'm sure. Think of the saving to the NHS!
She said that horse riders in her experience don't get prolapse. I wonder if that's right.
Thank you all again for your wise words and courage.
I think about you a lot and am so thankful I found you.
Onwards and upwards
Amel.

Hi Amel - I enjoyed your post and I am hoping you are right about WW concepts eventually being better known. I am in the US and not so hopeful about members of the medical establishment, who have a certain turf to protect. There seems to be a conspiracy of silence.

Maybe riders tend to maintain more of a WW-like posture while on horseback and even off.....and maybe they spend more time with their sit-bones spread apart providing a nice support for everything inside. I will wait for the more anatomically-educated on this forum to chime in!

what an amazing comment. you explained it all so well. i think I too had to be stopped. my live was just so hard and stressfull. i did eveyting for everybody. My children, my husband, I tried to make everyones life easier. And not to forget as a massage therapist I saw alotof people with problems and I so wanted to help and gave more and more, olts of pro bono and discounts and , and extra care . i needed to be stopped and yes this did stopme and I did have 2 surgeries. i can not work and can hardly move and my family have to do most things for me. mt daughter does not do her study, does not do her homework and I do not have the strength to force her. i just have to let it go. If I would have done this before I wold not be in the place I am now. i guess it is not just adopting the whole womans posture ( although most important) but also the life style changes. I can not fix it all and everyone. People do cme to expect it too. thanks for your eye opening comment. i hope ypu are well. Maria

Hi,
I used to ride a lot...now I'm 68 and not so much...and I had three children and then got my POP when I was in my fifteis. So, don't go out and buy a horse to try to prevent it. :) It might be hard to start a discussion about a prolapse with a stranger on the street, but I do feel a responsibility to mention it to friends when certain topics come up. Do you know what I found out? My Obgyn, about my age, also with three children, has a POP. too!. Several years ago she had suggested surgery, saying that it was optional, and was pleased, I think, that I did not proceed down that windy road. She hasn't had one either, five years later. And, get this: her husband is a obgyn surgeon!
Discouraged was my name when I joined this site but I have been encouraged since that time.

Discouraged, have you told the wife of your ObGyn about Wholewoman?

I feel a teeny bit sorry for these doctors, who we give a bum rap for saying we need surgery. Surgery is really all their profession has to offer. It is their profession, as well as their blinkered vision that has let them down by stopping them from accepting that Whole Woman is a valid response to POP.

It is a little bit like saying that I feel sorry for people who insist that the world is flat. They miss out on so many opportunities and so many truths, and end up being very narrow in their perception of the world.

Hi Tova and everyone,
Thank you for your enquiry Tova - and I'm also so so pleased you found the WW community.
Whatever your situation, I hope you find lots of support and resources which may help feel better, improve your symptoms and be on the road to feeling healthier and happier. Such choices are so personal. I wonder whether you went for surgery or not?
Thank you Sammy and Maria Helena for being so honest and sharing your personal stories. It is so helpful fo us to hear these stories. The internet and the WW community has given us the opportunity to share our stories and help each other, which might otherwise have been untold and unheard.
Hi other UK women - nice to know there are a few of us here! I agree with Amel, I think there may be a more open minded response to the WW approach to prolapse treatment in the Uk compared to what it sounds like in the US. Perhaps because of the flawed but basically wonderful NHS. (I loved the support for the NHS in the opening ceremony of the OLympics!)
The WW community has come up trumps again with a variety of advice and views. I've not much to add, except to say the WW approach woked for me. I had a uterine prolapse which combined with inner thigh and sciatica like symptoms incapacitated me for a few weeks. I felt pretty desperate. It was only when I started following the WW approach that my symptoms improved and my pains disappeared. My symptoms gradually improved. It took commitment to follow the posture, exercises, life-style changes, unusual toileting positions;)... and slowly but surely my symptoms improved and as Louiseeds says I gradually gained control over my condition rather than the other way round. Now, I manage my tendency to prolapse the WW way, every day. Generally, if I follow WW principles I do not have a uterine prolapse at all, if I don't I my uterus starts to prolapse sooner or later. Overall I'm healthier and happier than I was before (having made some fundamental life-style changes as well). So generally I would highly recommend women try the WW approach. There's nothing to lose by trying this apporach first - and possibly lots to lose...
Hi Winnie, jsut to respond to your query regarding outcome measures of surgical operations for prolapse. There are recorded cases of problems following prolapse surgeries. Also take a look at the number of law suits regarding post prolapse surgery problems. Christine's book 'Saving the Whole Woman' is an excellent resource for learning about some of the very real and distressing problems some women face following prolapse sugery. However, it is a major problem that there aren't enough research re outcome measures, so proper evidence based research regarding the risk factors and long term effects of the various surgeries are not available. I like Doubtful's approach of actually asking the doctors what risk factors and post op problems there are. In the UK, NHS patients receive a leaflet concerning operations which describe the problem and the procedure/op and the possible side-effects of treatment. I think it's reasonable to get a response in written form.
With love and good luck with your choices and your journies, xwholewomanuk

Hello ladies

Hello Ladies, Im not very good on a computer, sorry for mistake in last post. I have been reading the previous posts here recently and one of Loiuse Ed's older posts titled "weird sensations" is excactly like what Im experiencing, and I would be grateful to know what has helped you with this. I have never had pelvic surgery, but been diagnosed with bladder prolapse, and had a few different diagnoses of rectal prolapse, intussusception, and yesterday I saw a co-rectal surgeon who said my pelvic floor is very weak and all my organs are coming downwards, and she recommended a laprascopic ventral mesh rectopexy operation to pull everything back up and insert mesh. She also said she would pull my womb up, (but Ive never been diagnosed with a prolapsed womb) so the thought of this surgery is so frightening in case it doesnt work. I am thinking about trying the wholewoman posture approach as it sounds hopeful, but not sure where to start or what book or DVD is best to get first. I live in UK so if anyone can help it would be great as I'd prefer to try natural methods. Has anyone on these boards had a laprascopic ventral mesh op and was it successful as some posts are saying that once you have one surgery you have to have a second sometimes, and that is not what I would want. I am 61yrs. Thanks for everyones posts and for sharing. Charlene.

I have never had surgery, but I am sure you will hear back from women who have and from women with more experience here than me (I have been here 3 months). I too am 61 years old and through the hope and direction of this site and the dedicated work of Christine, I am hoping that I will never have surgery. I do not know what that surgery is....but not being able to pronounce it and having the word "mesh" in it, is enough to tell me NO. In the spam of my computer, on a daily basis, there are advertisements about law cases over the failure of mesh surgeries. They are failing every day and women there are left with little hope and no direction. I think if they knew about WW before entering into surgery, we would be chatting with them here and hearing of their successes. They most likely following innocently the direction of their surgeons, thinking that they would be all fixed. There really is no surgery that can fix this. The WholeWoman approach is hopeful and natural and helpful for ALL of you, but you must find the dedication to it within yourself to be committed....to helping yourself in this way. The pelvic floor can be strengthened but not overnight. That strengthening process will come from your posture, and from walking and also from doing the correct exercise in proper posture.....little by little. I see that you have been on this site for a while. Have you tried to adopt the WW Posture? If you can, order the book and the Prolapse DVD. It is the best place to start and then you can add the yoga DVDs later or buy the whole bundle (I did because I knew I would want them all anyway). Do you walk regularly in the WW posture? I notice it right away when I get lazy for a few days, but that daily walk in posture is what really works for me....I feel stronger and the posture is stronger throughout the entire day. OH---I don't know where you are in the UK, but there is a Whole Woman teacher there. Maybe you will be lucky and find that she is in a commutable distance from you, even to have just one session. I am hoping to meet with a teacher some day. I would say to you...try not to be alarmed by what your GP said or by what you are feeling down there, and start to get to work now on adopting this posture and strengthening your body with WW exercise and walking (little by little). Yes, there is much hope and you can improve! My very best wishes to you!

HI Charlene and welcome - I am 62 and have been doing this work for over 2 years. Nothing much to add to Nighingale's excellent advice. You might want to go to the Resources tab, look for the video page and click on the first one....it it Christine giving an excellent 20-minute overview of prolapse, why surgeries fail and why the postural approach can work. Yes it's a commitment, really nothing short of a life change, but it beats any of the alternatives. Many resources on this site and wonderful women to help you. Hope you can get started right away if you haven't already. - Surviving

Hi Charlene

The prolapse you are experiencing is not life threatening, and need not ruin the rest of your life. You have time to assess your options carefully. You are right to be concerned about such major surgery for something that seems to be mainly discomfort and irritation, but of course many of these surgeries are done because of the 'fear of it worsening'. Left to your own devices it may worsen, but if you follow Whole Woman techniques you will probably be able to keep it at bay, learn how to use your body differently, and get on with your life.

All these doctors who gave you different diagnoses may all be correct, or may have been correct at the time they examined you. Prolapses are renowned for moving around and worsening and improving. This happens during the day, and in response to heavy exertion prior to examination, the presence of constipation, etc.

Go to the Resources Tab > Library > Articles > Inspirational, and read The Two Doors. This may help you to realise that opting for surgery first up can be a mistake, one that limits your options later.

Have a look at the videos while you are in the Resources area, and also the FAQ's Tab.

Call back with questions.

BTW, go to the Whole Woman Teachers menu, where you will find Lindy Roy's contact details. Lindy is our UK teacher.

Louise

Thanks for your replies Ms Nightingale, Surviving60 and Louiseds for your most kind and helpful replies. I had to change my password on my computer so only have this link for one day so wanted to get back to thank you all. I realy dont know how to paste the link in the browser web, that was sent to me by email, and have lots of difficulty trying to get on the website due to lack of computing experience so thats why I have not posted much in the past. I will also try and see if I can get to the resources tab library arcticles inspirational and read the two Doors. I also think surgery might be a mistake as what MsNightingale said about the mesh, would worry me too as I dont know what the lifespan of the mesh is and if it would mean further surgery later. I did not know that there was a wholewoman teacher in the UK so that sounds quite hopeful and not as worrying as the prospect of surgery that might not work. Does the Wholewoman teachers do the teaching by email, or in person, or how does it work? I seem to have lost Surviving 60's reply so don't know how to get it back but want to thank you for taking time to read my post and for your reply to me. I will definitely try and master this computing and get back later. I hope this goes through ok. Charlene

I do hope you are able to get your computer working! You want to order that book and DVDs if you can swing it. I have copied and pasted the information for the Whole Woman teacher in the UK. I don't know how she works, but most teachers will have a phone consultation with you and that is great (I did that with a wonderful teacher from NY since she was the closest one to where I live and maybe I will get there some day :) If you are close enough, then maybe you will be able to meet her in person. I think that would be the way to go! Good luck to you. You are on the right path now! Keep us posted when you can:)
Lindy Roy
Somerset, UK
01823 275766
lindy . roy at wholewoman.com

(EDIT: by Louise, Charlene, remember to take the spaces out of the email address and substitute the 'at symbol' for 'at'). :-)

Charlene, I don't know how you access the Internet or how familiar you are with browsers. If you can't find the reply, just put www.wholewoman.com into the address bar at the top of a browser window, or into your Search feature of your phone. This will bring up the homepage of Whole Woman. Look for the menus on the lefthand side of the page in upper case boxes and click on 'Forums'. Then login to the Forums if you are not still logged in, and click on Recent Posts. This will bring up the most recently posted topics and their most recently posted comments.

The Resources menu, Certified Wholewoman Teachers Menu and FAQ's menus are in the same place as the Forums menu on the homepage.

The These same menus can be found on the Forums page as purple tabs across the top of the Forums pages.

You can also access all your own posts and the topics they were posted in by clicking on your username once you are logged in. This takes you to your Profile page. Click on Track tab and they are all listed there.

Hope these suggestions are helpful.

You might find that there is a community centre or library in your community where you can take a basic computer course.

Louise

Dear Louise.....How did that happen? I used the @ sign for lindy's address but it didnt come out that way? And, I didnt have extra spaces when I typed it in????

Hi Ms Nightingale

Sorry. You are not going mad. I edited it in case a bot picked up and stole Lindy's email address. We think it is a good idea not to publish email addresses in email address format on the Forums. I figured that Lindy's name and contact details are on the Certified Teachers pages, so they weren't so important. You will notice on the Teacher pages the Teachers' email addresses are jpegs. They are not text. Same reason.

The message about reformatting the email address was for Charlene. I forgot that you would read the edits too. Whoops. ;-) Hope you will forgive me.

Louise

Good....I am not going mad. Wondered how that happened. I will not do that again, was just thinking with the computer issues of dear Charlene, it might help her to access it. Thanks for the info and of course for all your valuable input all over the place here....and greatly for your charming sense of humor! Have a great day!

Hello Ladies, Thank you all for your replies, and I have managed to send an email to lindy Roy, the Uk teacher, and have a better idea now how to get into the wholewoman website and forums, so thank you for keeping me right and helping me do that.
To: Surviving 60 Sorry, I had lost your post earlier when I replied as I think it must have been on the previous page, so I wanted to ask if you find the posture is helping, and how long before you see improvements. I had a wee look at the videos and I am not able to sit cross legged!! as I am a bit stiff now at 61yrs. I would presume there must be other posture things in the book and DVD that will help if I cant do the basic easiest one of sitting on the floor crosslegged and doing the rock over and back. I am glad you have found an alternative route to surgery as well.
Now some questions about the posture to you all: The standing posture; I have been trying this posture, but not sure how to relax the belly or if Im doing it right. What happens when you do these postures, does all the discomfort and heaviness of the prolapse go away temporary or for the whole day or what is supposed to happen? I am going to order the book first. I see there is two editions of the Saving the Wholewoman book, not sure if I should get the 1st edition or both of them. If I needed to have a pessary inserted for the bladder prolapse is it still ok to do the wholewoman exercises. I like what Louise Ed said that the prolapse can change at different times and be less or worse, depending on exercise, and stress, or constipation, so that has been a help to me as sometimes I feel more pressure, and think Oh, God this is getting far worse bulging and I get so anxious. I am so glad to have found this website, and thank you again for all your replies and for the forums. Once I get the book and hear from Lindy Roy Teacher I will be back in touch. God Bless. Charlene.

Hi Charlene - It's not important for you to be able to do everything that you see in the videos. All of the exercises are to reinforce the basic principles of WW posture, and to make it easier for your body to learn this posture and make it a habit. Do what you can, but don't count out the possibility that you will become more flexible over time, and find yourself able to do things that previously you couldn't. Just listen to your body and do what feels right. You will know how much to challenge yourself.

Standing in posture is not going to make your symptoms go away on the spot. It's something you have to learn and it takes your organs some time to find their way back into the lower belly and away from the pelvic outlet. You have to remind them every day. This is a maintenance thing, not a cure or quick fix. I am over 60 and into my 3rd year of this work. My most significant improvements came in the second year, after I had really buckled down and quit "dabbling" in posture correction. I continue to this day to feel improvement, and like everyone else, I also have my setback days.

The first edition of Christine's book is no longer in print, and you will want to get the second one anyway, as it has been vastly updated.

If you do get a pessary, please make sure that you are shown how to remove it nightly for cleaning and for your tissues to breathe. There are doctors who will expect you to keep it in for months at a time and come in for a visit to have it cleaned. Not good! Wear it only when you need symptom relief the most. Theoretically you could wear it when you exercise, but something that masks your symptoms may not give your body the feedback it needs for Whole Woman work. Good luck to you!! - Surviving