Prolapse (without bulge)

Yes, Sevilla this is indeed possible. I had no idea I had prolapse until I went for a PAP smear and my dr told me I had POP. (Then she put me iron tablets for anemia and of course I got constipated and then I got symptoms of prolapse). And I also think once I knew about it I was probably more aware of what was going on as well. I also have a friend to whom the same thing happened - the diagnosis by dr before she knew about it - not the anemia. Neither of us are menopausal yet.

Are you asking so that you can be reassured that you can get your prolapse to a point where you can't feel it or see it? If so, then yes, in some cases this is true.

In fact, I think for a lot of us here, what you see is definitely not what you get. It seems that the degree and location of the prolapse can be quite independent of the symptoms, the symptoms being caused by other things apart from the physical degree of prolapse: how stressed you are, whether you are constipated, whether you have any other sources of inflammation.

Hope this helps!

Hi Sevilla, I once saw a scientific paper published in a respectable medical journal, describing a trial that was done in an African country where the researchers were screening for POP. It turned out that many women had POP and didn't even know it. POP is really just a medical label for an extreme form of normal pelvic looseness experienced by all women who have a pregnancy, whether the birth is vaginal or CS.

Vaginal birth seems to be a very common factor, but all women who birth vaginally do not have *diagnosed* POP, and all women who have diagnosed POP have not birth vaginally (or in some cases, at all!). Many women who have birthed vaginally also had episiotomy plus extra tearing, or simple tearing without intervention. Episiotomy, ie surgical obstetric intervention, seems from the experiences of women here to be a major factor, particularly with the first birth.

Many women have what we know as POP symptoms but don't regard it as troublesome enough to even mention to the doctor.

Some doctors note it, when the woman has a pelvic examination for unrelated reasons. It is all a bit arbitary, and definitely not life threatening.

Some doctors make a really big deal out of it and catastrophise it, while other doctors see it as being nuisance value at worst.

In fact it is up to the woman concerned to decide whether or not she regards it as a problem or not. doctors who alarm their patients and try to scare them into surgery are not doing anyone any favours, and are simply demonising something which most women can learn to live well with.

Telling a woman that she needs surgery in order to prevent the problem from worsening are in many cases telling big fat whoppers. I can attest to this personally, as I was warned to 'have a hysterectomy and various other surgical procedures within twelve months', eight years ago, or risk having to have much more serious surgery soon after that. Um, they were, very, very wrong about my POPs worsening. They have not worsened. Other doctors since then have mentioned my POPs if they have been able to detect them with pelvic examinations, but none since have even suggested surgery as they could see that it was not worsening. Last PAP smear I had the doctor had to search very hard to find my cervix and did not find any evidence of cystocele.

I was about 40 and had two pregnancies when my lower cervix was mentioned and I had a pessary fitted. POP worsened as a result of asthma combined with constipation about ten years after that. The pessary was more trouble than it was worth. That was when I found out about Whole Woman. Menopause was about four years ago, aged nearly 56. There has only been improvement since then.

Louise

Just in case you are wondering about the bulge getting better....yes. I am living proof. About 6 months ago I thought my life was over....couldn't sit or find a comfortable position. Now, I rarely notice it. It is so much better since starting WW work. And, I have to admit that I am far from perfect in my practice. I am always thinking posture.....always, always, and I walk often,always mindful of WW posture, but I do not get to the beautiful DVDs as often as I should. Even with that, I have my life back and with little ups and downs, I am rarely bothered by it. Best wishes to you!

I had a similar experience. Four years ago at age 58, I was having a PAP at my GP's office. During the procedure she remarked, have you been going to the bathroom a lot? I said, no. Neither of us continued the conversation. But after that, even though I didn't feel a bulge, I started to think about other symptoms I had been noticing for years....tampons coming out, that air-bubble feeling in the vagina. But it was another two years after that before the bulge was felt, and prolapse actually came onto my radar. I've often wondered what would have happened if I had pursued things back then. My feelings are mixed on that. If I'd found WW, I'd be even better today than I am. But what if I hadn't, and instead I'd kept my old bad posture, and concentrated on kegeling instead? Or worse, surgery....I can't even bear the thought. Some things happen when they are ready to happen. - Surviving

I was just diagosed with prolapsed uterus. I saw the bulge and made a appointment. The nurse practioner told me that I could try kegle exercises for 6 weeks and if it didn't work, I should come back
and they would tell me about other procedures. I don't want surgery or implants. I just ordered the book and DVD for exercises. I find the posture hard . . . bad habits (stand up straight, pull your stomach in, etc) I am making progress. Can you have sex with a prolapse uterus? I am 63 but still young.

Of course you can have sex with a prolapsed uterus. Different women on this forum have been speaking about just that here at http://www.wholewoman.com/forum/node/4923

Also type uterine prolapse or uterine prolapse and sex and so on into the search box at the top left of this page and you will find lots more.

We all found the posture hard at first, yes we had all fallen into those bad habits. You probably know we do not agree with kegels on this site. Again search for kegels in the search box.

I can beat that. I'm 66 and still a teenager.

I understand your searching for an explanation of your prolapse. Our problem is that it seems to be possibly due to any number of the things which you have mentioned. Let’s just start with the generally accepted idea that cystocele develops when the bladder drops and protrudes into the front wall of the vagina and that it results from weakening of the connective tissue and supporting structures around the bladder.

Muscles, bones, cartilage, ligaments and tendons are built mostly of connective tissues. It is also in the skin and our internal organs. It’s strong and can support weight and tension.

So when we complete menopause our production of estrogen has declined significantly, and you have mentioned that you have osteoporosis, ( I am assuming you developed post menopausal osteoporosis) so it is possibly not too far a stretch to say that your bladder’s supporting structures could have developed similarly to how the osteoporosis did possibly from the lessening of estrogen.

However, why you and not every other menopausal woman to a similar degree?

This is where we look to your particular circumstance. The heavy lifting you have mentioned; 20 liters, when factories here were changing down to 15 liters a bottle for safety reasons, factories I might add that employed men. Can you slide them along the floor or roll them?

The other thing that sticks out is that women athletes who are obviously non menopausal can be seen to leak urine. So the strain of lifting even in young fit bodies and by women about whom it can be assumed have been trained in best practice is demonstrated as not being actually a trouble free thing for female pelvic organs. The weight of the object and the muscle strain or, in the case of a runner, the utmost pace and strain and ragged, gulping breathing. This shows us physical exertion can affect adversely the pelvic organs even when they are new and stretched tight as a drum. Intense exercise suppresses the production of estrogen in athletes and can cause a small loss in bone density. Maybe, this also contributes to their problem. You may have lifted those bottles before without trouble, just as a weight lifter may have lifted those weights before, but this time things went wrong. Just get the stance slightly off and there can be unbalanced strain somewhere that has adverse repercussions.

Now for a fanciful scenario. If you were lifting these bottles and just happened to have a full bladder at the time, stressed, running out of time, doing it quickly just to get it done and out of the way, with weakened connective tissue and with the weight bearing directly upon that organ that was possibly earlier shocked in a fall, and no longer having the youthful elasticity to spring back as readily. If you added to that the fact you are thin. Look, this is just a maybe possible scenario.

What are you thinking?

You mentioned that you walk a lot in posture and this should be good for your osteoporosis and your prolapse. The absolute absence of incontinence is a blessing.

Dear Sevilla, How are you walking? You are putting the ball of the foot first? I do not understand that. Typically (unless I am really missing something here) we put the heel first and let the foot roll gracefully. Maybe the other ladies will comment on this.

Good catch, Nightingale. Sevilla, did you just type this wrong, or is it actually how you are trying to walk? I can't even do it! Wondering where the idea came from. - Surviving

Hi MsNightingale and Sevilla,
Just to say yes, I wondered about that too. I know In Christine's latest dvd; WW, the 3rd Wheel Christine demonstrates some barefoot running, in which she talks about landing on the balls of your feet. But I walk tall in regal style ('looking down on my minions' as Louise says!), stride along when/if appropriate and land on my heels. I'm sure you're not mean to land on the balls of your feet when walking normally.
xwholewoman

I try to walk in a way that my heel strikes first ... just ... so that my weight rolls forwards on the longitudinal arch, through the ball of my foot, and my big toe last, as I spring off for my next stride. I try to take nice long, relaxed strides so i can feel my psoas muscles stretching. However, if I am walking on 'lovely' Western Australian pea gravel or prickles, in bare feet, I take short strides, put the ball of my foot down first, and keep my weight on my back food until I know my footing is steady, and with slightly bent knees, change my weight to the front foot. That is not relaxed at all!

Sevilla, walking with the ball striking first is like the marching and walking I learned from my Dutch gymnastics teacher as a child. It is also a ballet walk, isn't it? It is very non-jarring, kind of like gliding.

So, just what will happen if the little ping pong ball bulges out? Does it go further and further or what? Seems I have had this bulge for years, (I will be 70 very soon) and no gyn mentions it or asks me questions. I went to a urogyn this year on my own, and you'd think this "unmentionable" was about to blow out like a tire by the seriousness she discussed with me. OMG No incontinence, no real problems, just the bulge.

And, so after reading ten million online things and the Whole Woman book and so many of these forum comments, I decided to do nothing in the way of surgery, or "her" pessaries. I ordered two on e-bay, one seems too big, one too small. Got to love it! Tried the Poise Impressa and voila! They hold things in place for me, gals. I use them on my active days. I dance, garden, walk, yoga, Zumba, etc. Also tried the Playtex Sports tampons as suggested on forum, but frankly, I need Jumbo, not the largest size I bought. They don't seem to hold her! She bulges around the darn thing. Anyone use nice BIG tampons? Brand?

Hi GirlTalk,
There is an even better solution, and that is whole woman posture. That way, you won't have to find the latest greatest thing to shove up in there, and the long term side affects of them irritating the vaginal tissue.
It would also be nice to know what the ping pong ball is, here is a self exam to look at:
https://wholewoman.com/library/content/articles/prolapseselfexam.pdf

Also, if you have read the whole woman book, you may want to go over it again, and Christine has great programs to help you along to learn this very important work.
Getting or even moving those pesky pelvic organs out of the vaginal space and into or even toward the lower belly is so relieving in itself.
Best wishes.

Thank you Aging gracefully! I am trying to keep the posture, but find myself with tummy tucked in, shoulders back like I have trained my "model" posture for years. And I am constantly reviewing the book. I totally understand what the ping pong ball is, just wondering what worst case scenario of it is!

Hi Girltalk - I'm trying to add a link - I've never done it here before:
https://www.wholewoman.com/forum/node/7794

but I had Christine answer me a while back when I asked - as you do now - how bad does this get? And it's very reassuring what she says - especially if you've never had surgery.
In the thread I mention my friend's mom, who I again saw recently and we chatted about her prolapsed uterus - she really just "lives" with it... with no guidance, no fear, nothing but just instinct (unfortunately her instinct is to wear fitted underwear - I tried to nudge her in the direction of relaxed and loose) but basically women have been living with this for a long time prior to surgeries and while it's not ideal, really if you do nothing at all, nothing all that terrible will happen. Sure you'll be uncomfortable and you couldn't do all the activities you wanted to do, but really the worst case scenario isn't as scary (anymore!) as how certain doctors make it out to be.
They really are doom and gloom about prolapse and/or flippant - "you just have surgery eventually once you're done having kids" like my dr told me. Not knowing that to me, surgery was a horrible option and not the flippant end-all she was making it out to be (hello - lawsuits!)
So yeah - a year ago I wouldn't said you were crazy if you told me I'd be ok with this situation and really, knowing that nothing all that horrible is happening to you (in the grand scheme of things... and after much soul searching) it's a very freeing place to be. I like to call myself a realist (some would say pessimist) but really when thinking of all the various horrible things that people deal with, prolapse isn't anywhere near the top (for me.... with Christine's guidance).
If your instinct is telling you you're ok - don't let some doctor tell you otherwise.

Hi GirlTalk,
Worst case scenario really is living with that bulgy feeling every day. But, Living in posture helps us to have better days and more of them without having to resort putting things up in your vagina which can not only cause irritation, but also keeps it open when it should be a closed airless space.
You could continue to feel just as you are the rest of your life, but the prolapse symptoms could also worsen. I prefer to feel better most of the time rather than just living with that annoying bulgy feeling, even if it doesn't worsen.

I came here with a severely prolapsed uterus with a cervix poking out; And now I can live my days very comfortably keeping that pesky cervix inside most of the time. The exercises, ww walking, jiggling and firebreathing, and the most important posture help me to do that.

I'd really like to see other women coming here enjoy the relief too!

I agree with Aging Gracefully - things can only get so bad, it's true, but over time they will surely get worse than they are now if you do nothing, so why do nothing? Stuffing things into your vagina to mask the symptoms is arguably worse than doing nothing because you are holding the vagina open to the encroaching organs, when you should be training yourself to hold the organs away from that space. Managing your symptoms without the use of objects or devices is much healthier and is very liberating. So think about it. - Surviving

Girls, I so appreciate the responses. This is exactly what I was looking for. I will take all your advice! Didn't read the link yet, Typicalme. What I found very interesting was the "nothing-in-there" advice. My thoughts were that on super active days "something" would add to support overall. I do not use something all the time. I love this WW Forum.

Thank you. Exactly the thing I'm needing to learn about. Half-grapefruit.....sure hope not! And, Christine, your answer was now, not only for Typicalme, but for GirlTalk too.