Quietly optimistic about kegels

Hi Wendy,

I remember seeing your sign-in name a few months back. Have you utilized the posture at all? Just wondering if there were any "confounding variables" in your kegel data.

:-) Christine

I also used to do tons of Kegels - And at first it seemed to help - Then it made it worse...

Hopefully it has only gone better for you - I saw a Physio who told me to do about 4 sets of holds for 5

Now I do that and usually at night laying in bed i do 20 fast holds - Thats it - I have 3 prolapses - And They have become soooooooooooooo much better for reducing Kegels lol

Good luck
Sue

just means factors other than those you believe brought about your outcome. :-)

And, I had a couple of questions. First, did the doctor give you a stage for the prolapse? When you say it was mild, what does that mean? Was it bothersome to you?

I, too, remain quietly hopeful about use of the kegelmaster2000, which I've been using for 2 months, and which has really helped with stress incontinence. There are women who claim to have used it to reverse prolapse. I've adopted a "wait and see" approach; and am glad for you and the progress you've made. Keep us posted.

Marie

I too think that kegels have helped my post partum rectocele though I am not under any illusion that kegels can repair torn fascia or ligaments. It was originally presenting as "baggy" skin in the posterior wall. Now it is quite firm there, and unless I bear down I can't see it or feel it at all. When I kegel, the entire area tightens considerably and this is a definite improvement. (If I bear down it bulges a little but not much). I am not sure whether it would have improved anyway but I think that the kegels have at the very least helped to re- tone things down there after my baby stretched everything! Just hoping to add to the anecdotal data for us all! :)
Michelle.

Tightening pelvic sphincters is not a bad thing. Just be sure you understand the anatomical reality that when the tailbone moves closer to the pubic bone, the pelvic diaphragm is LOOSENING, not tightening. We’ve been given very backwards terminology and concepts around these issues.

Another of my questions I am afraid Christine.................
Why then does it feel as though everything is tightening in the vaginal walls and pulling everything up with kegels? I am STILL trying to understand all these concepts! :)
Thank you.
Michelle.

Because the vaginal walls are being pulled more closely together as the pubococcygeus closes. There is a slight pulling up sensation as the vaginal sphincter tightens. This does not mean the pelvic diaphragm is pulling up (which is really a pulling forward.) It may or may not be depending upon your position when tightening. Either way, it is not a significant pulling up.

I do believe tight closure can pop a very mild cystocele back up above the level of the diaphragm, like Wendy just described, but whether it stays there over time clearly is not dependent upon strong pc muscles, as millions of progressively prolapsed women will tell you.

Any exercise is good that moves the organs up and forward. The beef I have with PT is that they forgot the forward part – a hugely significant oversight.

I said in the previous post that the pulling up is not significant. I don't want to confuse tightening of the pelvic sphincters with extending the pelvic diaphragm. Pulling up of the tailbone, and therefore the pelvic diaphragm, has enormous significance in that it initiates the sequence of musculoskeletal events that push the organs forward and lock them into place. I so wonder why some women sense this process almost immediately, while others just cannot grasp it. Any ideas?

Christine

I think the concepts that you are speaking of are extremely complex and require a detailed understanding of the terminology and anatomy involved. I know that this must be frustrating for you at times as you are an expert in this field, but for me it is taking longer to grasp, (perhaps longer than most), in relation to my own body.
I get the whole "tipping forward idea" but I don't sense a tightening in my pelvic diaphragm when I adopt the posture, or not to speak of anyway. I do however note significant pulling up, and forward of my cervix and tightening of my anterior and posterior vaginal walls with kegels. Sorry if this doesn't seem possible but it is simply a fact for me.
Thank you for your continued patience with me over this! :)
Michelle.

Dear Michelle,

I don’t mean intellectually, although that understanding is certainly important, too, and it will come…it took me years to get it. Rather, I mean I don’t understand why you don’t feel the sensation of pulling up and forward with the posture. It is more intense in front – the “urogenital triangle” – than in back. Kegels are harder to do in this position because the pubococcygeus is already being pulled together. However, a secure, pulled up feeling happens naturally and is made even stronger by consciously “kegeling” a bit more.

All the pubococcygeus does is open and close. There are two ways to cause this to happen. One is by raising the tailbone, which causes tension on the ischial spines, drawing them closer together and closing the “floor”. The other way is to tighten the sphincters – strong circular muscles – which likewise pull the diaphragm closed. This you can feel more intensely in your vagina and rectum when your tailbone is lowered which is what traditional kegels are all about. You are right, the pc is certainly important for regaining vaginal support! Just not at the expense of the greater framework, which also accomplishes normalizing vaginal support and has been completely ignored by medicine.

This is not an either/or issue! However, what we have been lacking is a true representation of organ support, which is more about posture than kegels.

Hugs,

Christine

Please excuse me for asking this if it was asked earlier. However, I am really not grasping all the medical terminology and do not understand all the anatomical parts of the pelvic frame. But from what you are explaining then seems to not be in favor of kegels b/c it pulls your tailbone forward. Then is just doing posture or other exercises helful in reducing symptoms of urinary frequency/stress incontinence? I also don't want to make my rectocele worse by doing kegels. (That was another thread earlier.)

Thank you Christine for your patience.

No question posture helps with SUI. Something cannot be good for one part of us and bad for another. I don’t know what to make of the anecdotal experiences of women here who have kegeled themselves crazy on their backs only to find their rectoceles worse. Who knows?

dealing with stress incontinence? thanks again.

:-)

So some of us have been using kegels for stress incontinence and debating about it's overall impact on prolapse. Then what is the exercise that you suggest instead of kegels to deal with it?

I've used the kegelmaster2000 with great success for urinary stress incontinence. I have no more stress incontinence and can almost stop the flow of urine mid-stream. I can go much longer at night without having to get up. Most nights, all night. Some have not had such good things to say about the km2000, but it's also improved my intimate relations ALOT!!! I recommend mykm.net.

Marie

Thanks for your suggestion. I am not sure if the kegelmaster is good for rectocele?? It was a question posted in some earlier threads. Maybe I will try it. I just find that my urinary frequency is ok sometimes (when I am well rested) and then when I get colds or alot of strain down there then it seems to kick in. Strange things that my body does! Nice to meet you. :)

...the Whole Woman Workout™ !

Marie…extra sphincter work is certainly important if you’ve lost a lot of strength as you describe. Just be sure to balance it with the postural work so that things (i.e. fascial planes) are pulling in the right direction.

Michelle,

Re-read my last post to you - "support" - as I changed the wording. I think it's really hard trying to explain this over and over again to everyone in written format. Come take a class!

:-) Christine

That stupid Kegelmaster made my rectocele worse!!!! STAY AWAY!

It helped my bladder urgency etc. but once I stopped and started the posture and exercises I haven't had a problem with that and I don't do kegel exercises.....

Thank you Christine!
I was just speaking with my husband about coming to take a class! I am very aware that I am probably closer than many other women here living just a state over. However, of course it is difficult with little ones etc. But I do hope to see you in Albuquerque soon!
Thanks again for all the posts, I am getting it I think. I really do not feel that kegels have made things worse for me. However, each situation is so very different for us all, and what helps one may perhaps hurt another it seems! I feel absolutely sure that your work can ONLY be helpful for us all. I will bear everything in mind and proceed cautiously!
Michelle

I have to tell you that doing your whole woman dvd exercises is a pivotal part of my wellness -- I notice if I don't do them one night that I'm not feeling as well and more draggy the next day. I also check and recheck myself all day regarding the posture, sitting and standing.

In your opinion, what is it about the KM (or other vaginal exercisers) that could make one's prolapse worse, like mommynow's? I certainly want to be cautious in this regard, yet am pleased with the results in muscle strength that I've gotten.

Your thoughts?

Marie

Thank you for your words of caution. Making it worse is something I certainly don't want, and I'm so sorry that happened to you. If you'd be willing to tell me more specifically about what happened with the KM, I'd like to know. You can email me if you want.

Marie

I would also be interested to hear what happened with you and the KM and I am also so sorry that this made things worse for you! Jeepers, not what we need right!
How do you know it was the KM? Did something specific happen after using it?
Hugs!
Michelle.

I've really felt the benefit of kegels, once I learnt more about doing them properly. I think a lot of people don't do them properly or do too many of them and that's when they can actually weaken your muscles. Over the last four weeks I've seen some significant improvement and it has been mostly down to kegels and abdominal bracing (and probably some changing hormones too as I'm about 5 months post partum when things start to improve for the better I'm told).

I don't know anyone in the medical proffession that has said kegels are good for anything apart from mild prolapse/postpartum recovery. And in support of Christine, I notice on days when I am more bulgy, if I stand in posture it does make things noticably better so in terms of symptoms I've found it really useful.

I found the KM before I found Christine, unfortunately. Before the KM I only had pressure vaginally.....which has gotten better with the posture work. I didn't have pressure further back. Anyway I didn't really understand prolapse when I found it so I kind of ignored the symptoms I was feeling right after doing it because the woman trying to help me said I need to give it time. Right after I would feel "tighter" up there but this feeling of pressure in my behind! Like I said I didn't know what it was. Finally I stopped using it because I just got this bad feeling it was making something else worse! I got lots of help and I know I was using it right. After finding Christine and reading about all the prolapses I'm sure the KM caused this pressure I'm struggling with in my behind. I can't help thinking that if I had found Christine's site right away I would have been "living well with prolapse" right now because the posture immediately helped my uterine and bladder prolapses (I don't feel them anymore). Instead I struggle with the rectocele because the posture alone isn't helping it :(

Hi Wendy,
do you have a reference for that study as I would be interested in reading it! Also, are you English "Wendy06" ar another Wendy? :)
Thank you.
Michelle.

I am not too sure, but if you contact me you could e-mail it if that is not too much trouble?
I have always wanted to go to NZ, haven't got there yet. One day!
Thank you.
Michelle.

I would love to have a copy of that study also! Maybe you, Michelle, could send to me, once you get it? I could send it forward again, then...
THANKS,
maya
My email info should be here...

Absolutely Maya, will send it to you as soon as I can!
Michelle. x

just wanted to add my view on the kegelmaster.it has helped with my urge incontinence and stress incontinence also.although after lapsing, i have had a few symptoms return so i have resumed the excersies.i have had two bladder repairs and although the second one has worked much better than the first, because i was under a urologist instead of gynocologist i think surgery brings with it different problems.i wish i had discovered the kegelmaster before surgery as i do think i have had a big improvement.you just have to be consistent.