Sharing My Thoughts

Beautiful! Made me cry a bit. You're so right. In Jesus we can find the peace, we need. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us!!!

I often have a picture in my mind of this very act; it brings me peace. Thank you for sharing.

I too, have thought of that passage many times in the last few months. And also Phil:4, "I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Thank you for a beautiful post and blessings to you!

It is general practice for medicos to assume a certain degree of faith healing , in some cases remission, and in others spontaneous healing. Thus we have the placebo effect, paying children five cents for a wart etc. But at a going rate of less than one per cent, it’s not something that the 99% plus left, if sensible, should wait around for. Doing what you can for yourself comes first. WW offers a way, it does not require faith but action to make it work for you.

Encouragement is what this forum is about, encouragement to seek more information about prolapse, encouragement to understand the WWprogram and how we can best implement it and make it part of our lifestyle, encouragement to research specific solutions, encouragement to reach out and share our prolapsed experience with other women. The wider dimensions of theology are really better dealt with elsewhere by those most able.

One of the things I cherish most about this forum is that women from all over the world come here to seek help and in return offer help to all and sundry on the basis of their shared experience of prolapse and the WWprogram is what they hold in common, and for the most part they leave their personal agendas at the door. Frequent reminders to stick with the Wholewoman agenda is an important part of encouraging this unity which we all rely upon.

It's okay. If you look around (search me on users), you'll see this has come up before. It will be interesting to you to pray and study to understand how and why forum members respond as they do to mention of Jesus and the Bible.

I've often considered that same passage of scripture in regard to our common ailment. I notice you emphasized the writer's comment on her having suffered many things of physicians without improvement. Have you noted mkm's post? We might hope she has noticed yours.

For you, w2k, Petrified, Butterfly, and Nature, may I put additional emphasis on Jesus saying to the woman who had suffered so much that her faith had made her whole? It was her faith that caused her to reach out to him, believing he could and would heal her; and he confirmed to her that her acting on her belief in him had made her whole. I often hear people speak of faith as believing in something that can't be proven....just believe, they say. It sounds more to me like wishful thinking. When I look at Hebrews 11, I see a definition of faith and following that a list of people who proved their faith by their works. I've considered the research we've done to arrive at this forum and the physical effort we put forth in posture and exercise, nutrition and skin care, encouragement and sharing information to be faith at work. Some people exercise faith and have not yet become aware of what it is. Some who claim great faith insist that no work is necessary and that's what I mean by having wishful thinking instead of faith. Does this make sense to you? And still there is no ability but what comes from God who enables each of us according to our requests, even giving us the gift of faith!

I believe that your intention was to share your thoughts and blessings without debate. I believe we can share this fellowship and thankfulness in the midst of them without being baited into theological arguments or without having to defend ourselves.

I think I see that someone has posted on this subject while I was thinking and editing. Look forward to reading it!

Love, Bebe

I'm with fab on this. I always get a little squeamish reading discussions like this because it's impossible to say anything without someone being offended. So forgive me if I offend anyone. But I'm sure that if I had come to this site 3 years ago looking for help with prolapse, and found Jesus instead, I might have moved on, thinking WW was not what I thought it was. Please folks, we have such an important message to impart here, and such a melting pot of women from all over the world participating. Let's just stick to what we do. Faith is a very personal thing, expressed in so many different ways. Christianity is not universal. Prolapse is! - Surviving

Dear all,
I am with Surviving 60 & Fab.
Our focus here is to spread the message of Whole Woman Posture.
There are plenty of other avenues to preach other messages.
Best Wishes
Aussie Soul Sister

There is no section of this Forum that stands apart from our overall message. As a moderator I’m simply here to make it understood that this is not a Christian website. Women of all faiths (or even no faith) come here to learn about their health. Jesus may be your inspiration, but this is neither universal nor inclusive, which is what I believe this Forum should be. - Surviving

I believe in faith-healing and thank you for this poem. I thought the first responses that followed were lovely. If I had a terminal disease and wanted to stay on the planet, I would plead for a Navajo Night Chant healing ceremony, for it is true that energy medicine and love do heal.

Please understand that we are sensitized here to the heavy hand of the “believer” who slams her fist on the table (oh so daintily) and insists we are not whole without a certain type of faith. That is what Fab, Surviving, myself and many others cannot deal with.

Please, let’s pray for inclusiveness, for the intolerance and exclusivity of religion have ruined the world.

Christine

Thank you, Want2know,

We all have our own Teachers, Buddhas, Angels and Gurus and we are All equal part of the Great Perfection.

It’s good for all of us to be reminded of than once in awhile.

Christine

P.S. You can certainly talk about Jesus here...just don't try to convert others, which I have not seen you do.

Just a few points which I find need to stress.
Want2know said: “Is there no place for people who love the Lord here??” Readers please note: No-one censured anything that want2know said, neither did they comment on her love for her Lord.
Want2know said: “Neither am I trying to destroy whatever 'unity' we women can have as we share our problems and any solutions we have found.” It was pointed out the unity was around the common difficulties of prolapse and the working of the wholewoman program, nothing was said about want2know destroying anything.
Want2know said: “It seemed to me to be a place where one could just simply express how poetry/music/art had inspired them along their journey.” The difference between want2knows’ poem and the others is that the story it depicts (as cited) is part of a whole system of religious doctrine based on authority and which is taught with the express purpose of determining behaviour and mental attitude.
Want2know said: “I will be careful not to mention His name on here again lest I be accused of .... well ... anything” I think it important to point out Want2know was not accused of anything.

Aren't we supposed to shut it up when Christine speaks? Your personal agenda is sticking out, Fab, like Grandma's ears and teeth. You're usually so perceptive and well spoken and smart, but you made an error on that last post. You said, "The difference between want2knows’ poem and the others is that the story it depicts (as cited) is part of a whole system of religious doctrine based on authority and which is taught with the express purpose of determining behaviour and mental attitude."

The authority of the whole system of religious doctrine is based on the Bible. Want2know's poem was based on an account given from the Bible. The poem itself was evangelical; but if clarification is the purpose of your post, you have to admit that the so-called Christian religion bases it's authority on the Bible, not the other way around. (And the fact that denominations have invested themselves with the authority of the Bible while teaching against the Bible is a whole 'nother argument, also better suited for another place and by those who are able to make the proper argument.)

You're certainly right that the teaching in the Bible is with the express purpose of determining behavior and mental attitude. So is the WW program. So what is wrong with it is that it's from the Bible, not that it has the purpose of determining behavior and attitude, right? If what is wrong is that the poem itself is evangelical, encouraging belief in Jesus...then, why? Christine says it's okay to talk about Jesus and the invitation of the poetry forum was to share how one is inspired.

Haven't we already agreed that the forum has a narrow focus and there's no room for evangelism or debate? That in the interest of inclusion and unity, as well as sharing encouragement and inspiration, we are all free to share and sometimes have direct (albeit public) exchanges with one another? I think this thread would not have taken this turn if you hadn't tried (ever so carefully) to censor it, Fab.

And now I have to admit to a light bulb moment. Going back and reading and reading again what you said, Fab, it seems your complaint is that the actual authority that the mention of Jesus, the Lord, the Bible or scriptures carries with it is what has no place here. Dear Fab, that authority is real no matter where it is mentioned (or if it is not mentioned at all). The recognition of the authority is in oneself; then the resistance to it is in oneself...even when one hears others speak of it. Oh, my. If there were no voices in the world, it still could not be shut up.

You (those with authority on this forum) may censor me with a keystroke, but I've spoken to you from my heart and I am not sorry. I have loved this forum and hoped for your friendship.

Dear Bede you do know that Wholewoman is specifically about the management of prolapse. Please don’t make it into something else. I thought our friendship was solid. There are certain subjects which are avoided here, politics is another, in the interests of harmony. I’m quite sure your work place is the same. When I am with friends we avoid the subjects of religion and politics. Asking people to shut up is awkward. It has never meant that they did not have something worthwhile to say. It just meant in the love of each other we tolerate our differences and the easiest, kindest way of doing that is to not bring them up.

I appreciate your being so straightforward. That you stated, "As a moderator I’m simply here to make it understood that this is not a Christian website" is at least honest and makes it clear that there is an official consensus to control the expression of Christianity. I suppose if any forum member were to be too enthusiastic about their Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, or whatever, they would receive the same admonition. I confess that I enjoy exchanges with Fab on this subject. While she might have been angling for w2k, I'm glad it's an open forum. She caught me. I hope you're not offended.

Bebe, for me the issue is very much simpler than all of this. And it is rather personal. If I had come on this site over 3 years ago, looking for help with my prolapse, and found instead a thread in which women share how they are inspired in their prolapse journey by an image of a women touching the hem of Jesus' garment and being healed........... I would have quickly moved on in search of something else. I would have completely missed what WW was all about. Who knows, I probably would have followed other family members down the path of surgery, instead of fixing my body as I have done. This thought to me is bone-chilling, and it is why I agree that religion, politics, and anything else that can so fundamentally divide and exclude us from discussions with each other be left at the door.

Whole Woman changed my life, both in body and mind. I cannot stand the thought of anyone coming here, and moving on without getting the message. And I know that this happens every day for lots of different reasons. So let's not push anyone away. All I want is to stay on our message. This message does not need religious embellishment. This message is its own inspiration. - Surviving

Hi, I know I'm still new here, but I made the decision to post my opinion here. Perhaps it isn't my best idea, but I want to show some support to Bebe.
First of all I want to say, that I really appreciate you and your advices, Fab and Surviving. You are full of wisdom and you always have an open door for everyone here. So, thanks for that.
But this time I think, Bebe, who I appreciate too, is right. Christine jumped in here, posted her opinion and everything was fine. Everyoneunderstood, that religion is a personal thing. I think, noone needs some more explanations about it. So, the best would have been, if Fab just let it be. Sorry, that's my personal opinion. Perhaps I shouldn't post this, but something made me to.
Butterfly

But that's just it though, not everyone felt inspired by it, some felt downright squeamish about it. And, I know that wasn't your intention.
I have always loved the diversity of women on this forum, and I know we all suffer from foot in mouth syndrome sometimes, but the unity always pulls us back together. That unity will always be sharing such an intimate commonology which is prolapse.

I can see we are not going to agree to disagree on this, never wil with this subject.
I shouldn't have joined in this hot topic, common sence was telling me not to!

It brought an emotional response from me because of an experience I had working at the hospice. At the hospice those that wanted religion in their deaths got it, those that didn't were left alone to do it however they wanted. We didn't have a religious blanket thrown over them first, and then let them decide if they wanted it or not. It was actually discussed right at admission what they wanted.
There was a lady who didn't want any of it, and she told her children that. The children waited until she became unresponsive, and then brought in a priest to give her last rights. That has always stuck with me.
Like I said, I am too emotionally invested, and should not have said anything. Sorry ladies....

I wish to give thanks to all the beautiful women here. I have wandered the outskirts of the circle for many months now and am only now ready to step forward and join hands. Though, it is not my prolapse issues that inspires my post, but the recent turn of events on the poetry forum. There is a beautiful poem called -- Women's Declaration of Interdepence. The poem comes from a book which, ironically, is titled "Oh Thank Goodness, It's Not Just Me!" Authored by BJ Gallager and Lisa Hammond. Because I am not familiar with copywrite laws I did not copy it here, but it can be found by searching the poems title on worldwideweb. I read this poem and immediately thought how well this fit this community of women.

Thank you Christine for daring to bring the issue of prolapse into the light of day and for taking all of us into your nest and teaching us to soar with our broken wings. Thank you Louise for your humor that makes us laugh even when the tears fall...I will never look at chopsticks the same way. If you should happen to glance into an Asian restaurant and see a woman giggling into her bowl of noodles, well that would be me...and you are there. To whomever suggested: "Pee standing up!", you rock. There are times this has made all the difference. And many thanks to Aging Gracefully, Surviving 60, Tree Woman, Fab, W2K, and....well, now this is starting to sound like an Oscar Night speech. Just let me conclude with: Hugs to all!

Well, thank you, dear! If I'm not mistaken, peeing standing up was Fab. Come back and tell us more about YOU! You sound like the perfect soulmate for our lovely community. - Surviving

Thank you for the warm welcome Surviving60. It has taken me a bit to get the nerve up to hop on the forum, but I have been reading pretty much every post, whether it pertained to me or not. You never know when someone may render a post that gives an "ah-ha" moment. My journey towards prolapse began 34-years ago with the birth of my only child. My baby girl was pulled into this world with forceps after hours of pushing and the doc putting his hand in twice to attempt to turn her. She was handed to me with a pointed head and a bruised face, staring at me with eyes that almost asked, "What the hell just happened?" Thankfully she suffered no permanent injury from this injustice, however mom did not fair as well. I was given a spinal block, followed by an episiotomy which, to this day, prevents me from riding a bicycle...tears to my cervix and then the forceps. I lived with a small non-problematic cystocele for awhile but then, fast forward to menopause (10 years post now), the cystocele became worse, a rectocele developed to keep it company, and on a tearful night I found the wonderful women of this site. My cystocele is my primary issue, some days high, most days low, the rectocele only bothers me when I have been constipated...and appears to like Honey Nut Cheerios, so I eat a bowl a bedtime. Usually works. I have trouble peeing but have found several suggestions on the forum which have helped...some days good, others not so much. Have stopped the old-fashioned Kegal's as they seemed to make the urinary retention worse. Did Christine's new-Kegal's after watching the video and noted that things pulled up a bit, along with a wee bit of poochy rectum (Bonus!), but the next time I did something wrong and pushed it all down again. I still need to get used to the idea of the relaxed belly, which is hard for me...but I know that it worked once and will attempt this again after I order the book and DVD next payday. I thought at first when things started getting worse that I could not do this, but I do not wish to submit to a surgeon's knife and will follow this path for as long as I can...barring my "bits", as some refer to them, falling out and trailing behind me. Sorry this post is so long...though I have noticed that when we first get aquainted we do have to offer up a bit of information. I am so glad to have found this site!!!

Hi all,
I also responded to Want to Know's post negatively, stemming from my experiences in Christian circles.
As Woman to Woman Want 2 Know I would like to say sorry for my intolerance to your post - you deserve a big hug. I was judging from my perspective & could have sought to understand.
In our journey together,
(((hugs)))
Aussie Soul Sister

Dear Arizona,
I googled the authors you mentioned & watched a lovely youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxD6PEYXANw
I often lament how women can be so unsupportive & critical toward one another & then fall into it myself.
Thankyou all for this thread...
Best Wishes
Aussie Soul Sister

I am ecstatic that one of you, if only one, understood my reasoning and had the courage to say so. Thank you Butterfly.

Surviving, you would have missed a lot by excluding this website because of the mention of Jesus; but in this case you missed that touching the hem of his garment is a metaphor for humility and seeking help from one who is able to help. Welcome to the concept of basic abstract thinking. It ain't magic.

The concepts of harmony and unity are opposite to the weak and watery idea of agreeing to disagree.

I fought this out in myself over the past months and came to the conclusion that this forum is what it is, what it should be, serves a valuable purpose, and should not be a forum for debate of religion or even of essential truth. It is necessary for women to have an alternative and support to be enabled to let go of false hope in the institution of medicine and damaging medical intervention and to begin to take responsibility for their own health. I have had hope that women who were so willing to seek this out and think outside the box of institutional medicine might also be willing to think apart from institutional religion. It is disappointing that while the argument pretends to be against religion, it is the same old argument that excludes Jesus Christ on the basis of religious hypocrisy. He's not religious, you see.

Anyway, THEREFORE, I am taking the following personal risk. I will identify myself on the Whole Woman, Inc. facebook page with an invitation to any of you who would like to talk about NOT religion but scriptural truth to message me on my personal facebook page. I'm nobody. I don't have a "Christian website", a blog, don't want to talk about my prolapse apart from this forum, and have no intention of competing with this forum. If there's anything true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous, or praiseworthy to think on, share and talk about, we can try that. While adherence to scriptural truth will be the standard, it's not expertise that is required but willingness.

I sincerely believe the discussion should be removed from this forum and offer myself as proof.

Thank you all for your indulgence. Whether in sincerity or pretense, Christine and forum members have allowed me freedom of speech even when they may not have liked it and tried to persuade voluntary submission to the rule.

Postscript: It is easy to set up a facebook page if you haven't already and you don't have to reveal any more of your identity to me than you wish to reveal. My page is not open to the public and my friends are few, but messages are private.

I did not let it be, because want2know made certain assertions that just were not true. Whether she was fearful that these were the things that would happen may be the case. If that was the case then I thought she and everyone else could do with reassurance that those things had not been done and by spelling them out it is unlikely that they will be done in the future. Aussie Soul Sister the tolerance argument is always turned on those who are demanded the most of; in this instance me. It was not the other way around. What want2know did was inappropriate, but she demanded tolerance from everyone else. We were not to be intolerant. Not to be intolerant of the intolerant, quite some twist. As well, I have been accused of a number of things (even to being a wolf or does she mean beast) by Bebe which I have chosen to accept as simply a colourful form of language, but I know few others who would. Let's be real about this. Want2know played the victim role (a common debating trick), and I pointed out that that she had not been victimized. I have now been given blame here for not letting it lie. What? let untruths lie? Don't let's quibble about this. People who hold strong beliefs are among the most intolerant people there are, because they cannot tolerate that anyone else could hold other thoughts. You may wish to deny this, but history and even current affairs in Arabia and Afghanistan are living proof. That want2know and Bede have both sought to make the forum into what they want it to be, requires some one to stand up and say that's not going to happen. And here on this forum you witnessed a brave few. By sticking to the wholewoman program, this forum has managed to trundle along for quite some time. I am glad Bebe that you have decided to set up your own camp. That you have decided that Wholewoman is not for private purposes. You realise that on an earlier occasion that I offered to talk about these things privately via email if you wanted. You did not want to because you wanted a wider audience. That's fine, but I will not be seeing you on facebook, but I do wish you the best.

Hi Arizona. You know, I've never enjoyed any kind of bike riding in my adulthood, I had decided that bikes just weren't comfortable. For some reason I never associated that with my episiotomies and certainly not with my 'celes, because I felt this way long before "discovering" those. But it all fits together.

I too have both 'celes and my cervix stays well inside. This is what Christine calls "nature's pessary" and it responds well to diligent posture work. So please do get yourself the book and DVD when you can. I used just the book for my first year. There is so much to absorb. When I finally got my first DVD I was sorry I had waited to long.

Relaxing the belly is a huge adjustment for most of us. These days I look around and every so often see a woman with a pronounced lumbar curvature. I want to run up and ask her how she managed to maintain that gorgeous shape when the rest of us were taught throughout life to hold everything in tight. When you finally "get it" you will feel different. You will always have those 'celes and you will still experience good days and bad. What you won't have is that fear that you walk around with now. I used to feel like old age was going to creep up on me and there wasn't going to be anything I could do to affect the quality of my life and health. Being here has turned that around, I feel like I've taken control of lots more than just my prolapse. - Surviving

I wonder if you could refer me to the post where you invited me to communicate privately by email. I hate to think I missed it or misunderstood. I supposed as a moderator you had access to my email address and would have contacted me that way. I understand that the offer doesn't still stand, but I would appreciate knowing how I missed it.

Bebe, from time to time certain discussion threads end up getting removed from the Forum. What you are looking for might not be out there anymore. Fab would not have had any access to your e-mail address. That's an administrator function on the site, not a moderator function. - Surviving