comparing the bacteria burden in the bladder resulting from Urine Retention

Submitted by chickenfeet on June 14, 2016 - 1:30am
Body: 

Is there any study comparing the bacteria burden in the bladder resulting from Urine Retention with a pessary and without.

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Christine

June 14, 2016 - 11:59am

Hi Chickenfeet,

I highly doubt it because the microbiology of the bladder has been largely ignored, except for very narrow analysis of a limited number of pathogens. When you mean "burden" I suppose you're talking about pathogenic types. The bladder has its own microbiome, which is the same as the vaginal microbiome.

However, urinary retention - pessary or not - paves the way for uti.

Christine

chickenfeet

June 15, 2016 - 2:00am

My understanding is that once the mucousal lining of the bladder is populated with the strains that are suppose to be there, bad bacteria is less likely to take hold. But in the meantime, if someone elderly isn't interested in getting on all fours, and bending forward to tilt the bladder to empty out, and they consider this fussing, What choice do I have?

Aging gracefully

June 15, 2016 - 6:34am

From my experience working with elderly dementia patients, the ones that ended up with UTIs the most had catheters. The rest would occasionally get them, but usually only if they didn't drink enough water. I remember cranberry pills being passed out quite a bit, but don't know how much that helped. We just kept them clean and comfortable, and minimized the fussing.
Just wondering, who is going to be inserting and taking out a pessary on a regular basis? From everything I have read on here about pessaries, they can cause more problems in the long run.

chickenfeet

June 16, 2016 - 4:58pm

I would only use a pessary -IF- the occasional wearing of a pessary or SPONGE, or removable cube, may allow the bladder to be in a different position once in a while to be preventing any bad bacteria from settling in the lower part of the bladder. This would be the case only if there are times when she isn't wanting to bend forward when getting herself down on the toilet or has already sat down and i need to get her to touch the floor and left her butt as she has balance issues. She gets a little upset that she has to do this. When I tell her it is important to move the pee, she says, "So let it kill me"..... I have her grab her knees with her arms when she goes to bed in the hopes that this gets her bladder moving and try to have her lift her butt to the ceiling but she can't do that as well anymore.

Aging gracefully

June 17, 2016 - 6:14am

So how many repeat UTIs is your mom having?
I think you should go by her cues as to what she feels like doing. I think the "so let it kill me" statement is a big one.
The one thing I know about my years and years of working with people with dementia is that they don't like to be fussed with, and this sounds like a lot of fussing to me. What they do like though are simple routines and a very slow approach. They can actually get physically violent if you push them too much trying to get them to do what you want them to do, so easy does it chickenfeet.

chickenfeet

June 17, 2016 - 11:11pm

"I think the "so let it kill me" statement is a big one." There is a learning curve to know what she wants to do as far as posture and moving a certain way or drinking a large glass of liquid in one sitting to flush the bladder.
I don't know how many repeat Uti's she is having. I only did one urine culture this year.

Aging gracefully

June 18, 2016 - 6:50am

You would know it if she had a UTI, because she would be acting outside the realm of her usual behavior, and she would more than likely be having a burning sensation upon urination.

There is also a learning curve in how you take care of an elderly person with dementia, and forcing posture on her and large glasses of water is just wrong in my mind. Our elderly just need gentle care. You seem to want this state of perfection with her care. I can tell you that isn't going to happen, because all people are different as well as all situations. Just be there for her.

chickenfeet

June 26, 2016 - 1:42am

Out of the ordinary behaviour, or confusion and frequent urination WITHOUT pain or burning sensations are what i think might be clue to a UTI coming. I have read that the burning pain is absent with elderly women in most cases. It seems that an over abundance of bad bacteria burden is a big cause of mental decline in women and the consequence is UTI.... Clear the UTI and the dementia goes away once the residual bacteria is gone. If keeping the bladder down is causing the dementia symptoms as a result of urine retention, then this is a problem needing a solution. NOt an immediate perfect solution but striving for a solution for this NOW is not a bad thing. Because succumbing to accepting low dose antibiotics to stop UTI, might strip her of good bacteria wouldn't it? She will get itchy again. And i think i have read that 90% of neurotransmitters are in the GI and we think they are in the brain. Not so.

Aging gracefully

June 26, 2016 - 7:39am

Having worked with so many people with Dementia and UTIs, I can Confirm that UTIs do not cause dementia. When people with or without dementia got UTIs, they would act very much unlike themselves, which made us suspect a UTI and would then get them tested. Once they had gone through the course of antibiotics, they would go back to their normal selves. Those that did not have dementia, still did not have it. Those with dementia still had dementia. They were diagnosed with dementia before even coming to the nursing home, and stayed that way until their deaths.
I can only speak of my experiences; I have no knowledge beyond that.
I am sure there is a lot to be read out there, and many studies that are currently going on, but this forum isn't about curing dementia, but about prolapse. Posture and the techniques we have already described many times are really the only advice we can give.
And, we have given you all the advice we know, so you may want to contact Christine if it is scientific study that you want to talk about.

Surviving60

June 26, 2016 - 8:03am

Chickenfeet, I do not disagree with your overall assessment of the situation......the immune system resides primarily in the gut, and dementia/Alzheimers are now just beginning to be recognized as most likely having an autoimmune component.

That being said, as Aging Gracefully points out, we have only postural tools to offer here. If your mom is past the point where she can be instructed in simple ways to help empty her bladder completely, then I'm not sure how much lasting improvement you can expect, when it comes to UTI management. She cannot be shown how to lift up and forward while peeing? Can she learn to lean forward and jiggle her organs a bit more forward before sitting down to pee? Once you understand the relationship between posture and pelvic organ support (which I hope that you do, at this point) then I think there are ways that virtually anyone can help create this dynamic - even your mom. - Surviving

chickenfeet

June 26, 2016 - 11:59pm

She cannot be shown how to lift up and forward while peeing? Can she learn to lean forward and jiggle her organs a bit more forward before sitting down to pee?
She is getting a strong hunch in her upper back so she can't lift. I think it is neurological.

chickenfeet

June 27, 2016 - 12:14am

So i have no choice but to succomb to antibiotics if mannose, pau d'arco, nettles, fermented drinks, garlic in bone broth and larger volumes of water to flush out the bladder don't work to keep the bladder free of over abundance of pathogens?.. my fear of using antibiotics is that when it will REALLY reALLy be needed like for an pneumonia, and it is prescribed, it just won't work. and there is the issue of antibiotics killing good bacteria.

Aging gracefully

June 27, 2016 - 6:42am

Is she having recurrent bladder infections? I asked once before, and you said you didn't know. Why put her through all this if it is just you assuming she is having them when she has not been officially diagnosed repeat UTIs. You really need to see a doctor about all this. Maybe he can give you something for all the anxiety you are having which seems to be getting more and more extreme.
We are not medical people here, and we keep telling you that, but you just aren't listening.