When I first “cracked the code” on stabilizing and reversing prolapse, and wrote and published Saving the Whole Woman, I set up this forum. While I had finally gotten my own severe uterine prolapse under control with the knowledge I had gained, I didn’t actually know if I could teach other women to do for themselves what I had done for my condition.
So I just started teaching women on this forum. Within weeks, the women started writing back, “It’s working! I can feel the difference!”
From that moment on, the forum became the hub of the Whole Woman Community. Unfortunately, spammers also discovered the forum, along with the thousands of women we had been helping. The level of spamming became so intolerable and time-consuming, we regretfully took the forum down.
Technology never sleeps, however, and we have better tools today for controlling spam than we did just a few years ago. So I am very excited and pleased to bring the forum back online.
If you are already a registered user you may now log in and post. If you have lost your password, just click the request new password tab and follow the directions.
Please review and agree to the disclaimer and the forum rules. Our moderators will remove any posts that are promotional or otherwise fail to meet our guidelines and will block repeat offenders.
Remember, the forum is here for two reasons. First, to get your questions answered by other women who have knowledge and experience to share. Second, it is the place to share your results and successes. Your stories will help other women learn that Whole Woman is what they need.
Whether you’re an old friend or a new acquaintance, welcome! The Whole Woman forum is a place where you can make a difference in your own life and the lives of thousands of women around the world!
Best wishes,
Christine Kent
Founder
Whole Woman
Surviving60
June 24, 2017 - 9:09am
Permalink
Hi Proverbs and welcome.
Hi Proverbs and welcome. First I want to say something about PT. Post-partum prolapse often resolves on its own, at least for a period of time (and comes back eventually if measures are not taken). Nine months of pelvic PT may not have helped at all, and in fact may have aggravated things if it was a kegel-based program (as most are). So I hope you will look more into the Whole Woman work. The dynamics of the pregnant body are the same as the non-pregnant.. the organs are held forward. Logically it seems like a great time to start studying the concepts. That being said, I'm not sure it's really that easy of a time to learn it. I couldn't say, as I did not start dealing with my prolapse until much later. I had significant post-partum bulges but did not really know what they were (no internet back then!).
Your doc is mistaken about things having to get continually worse; they can stabilize and improve if you learn what to do and then do it. If you are physically unable to relax your belly, possibly it is a pregnancy thing. Hopefully other young moms can chime in.
Prolapse tends to start moving out of the way in late pregnancy and for labor and delivery. So don't be afraid of that. Aim for a gentle birth in a natural position with minimal intervention. - Surviving
Proverbs31Mama
June 24, 2017 - 3:34pm
Permalink
Kegels
My PT was a kegels based program, but I was never able to do as many as she would have liked. When I do kegels, I tend to get hyperotonic and have to find ways to relieve pain in my pelvic floor muscles. For this reason, I had much more success with building core and butt muscles. My prolapse was well managed, but not necessarily improving. I am all in with whole woman, as it seems to be the only option for me that is not surgery when I am done having children. That just isn't an answer I will accept. But I am struggling to master the posture and dealing with lower back pain, and not breathing correctly. Just not sure how much is pregnancy and how much is just having to adjust....
Christine
June 24, 2017 - 3:35pm
Permalink
breathe into the midriff
Hello Proverbs and welcome,
Like so many other unique bodies of work, Whole Woman has been a work in progress.
The instruction to “breathe into your lower belly” was replaced several years ago with “breathe into your midriff - below your breasts and above your navel.” Initially I was trying to help women understand that the human abdominal wall is held out - not flopped out - but pulled *up* by strongly lifting the chest, and breathing deeply into the lower belly seemed descriptive.
Look at your young children and see that they hold their midriff out and the rest of the abdominal wall just follows. This never changes until we are told to pull the belly in, which in turn pulls the pelvic organs back from the abdominal wall. The midriff is the leading edge of the abdominal wall because the breath (intraabdominal pressure, really) is moving into that area first.
It took a while to dawn on me that concentrating on breathing into the lower belly can cause a simultaneous contraction of the upper abdomen, which is probably what you are experiencing. It confuses the body, which you have rightly expressed.
My sincere apologies and we will see to editing that instruction asap, which we should’ve done years ago. We have an endless to-do list!
Wishing you well,
Christine
Proverbs31Mama
June 24, 2017 - 7:24pm
Permalink
Breathe into Midriff
I appreciate your reply. And I am sure you have updated things appropriately, but I bought the First Aid course for cost reasons and I know it is one of your older courses. May I ask too, what muscles groups are meant to be employed when you stand back up from being bent over? I have a habit of using my stomach muscles because my back is prone to injury most of the time. So I cannot figure out how to rise from bending properly aside from hinging at the hips. Is it back muscles? Do you bend at the knee a little and use your butt? Do you breath out and use your stomach?
Proverbs31Mama
June 24, 2017 - 7:25pm
Permalink
Breathe into Midriff
I appreciate your reply. And I am sure you have updated things appropriately, but I bought the First Aid course for cost reasons and I know it is one of your older courses. May I ask too, what muscles groups are meant to be employed when you stand back up from being bent over? I have a habit of using my stomach muscles because my back is prone to injury most of the time. So I cannot figure out how to rise from bending properly aside from hinging at the hips. Is it back muscles? Do you bend at the knee a little and use your butt? Do you breath out and use your stomach?
Militarymom1
June 25, 2017 - 2:11am
Permalink
Back ache
Welcome to the forum:) I don't have experience with post partum recovery because my prolapse happened when my kids were 4 years out. However, I wanted to address the back ache. When I started the WW posture my back ached for months. I had pretty terrible posture and standing up correctly really felt terrible. I kept with it, and now my back feels great! I was also told surgery, and it's not acceptable. I've worked hard to get the posture down and build up my core muscles, which has worked for me.
Proverbs31Mama
June 25, 2017 - 8:39am
Permalink
Militarymom1
Thank you for your encouragement! I'm sure SOME of it has to do with being pregnant, but I am only a few days in and glad to see the backache is normal. I convinced my husband to massage some of my back and shoulder muscles last night. It really helped paired up with a hot water bottler. And I can't imagine how I would be feeling if he hadn't. When I got up this morning, I was SOOOO stiff. I went through the mat exercises to work some of the stiffness out.
Christine
June 25, 2017 - 10:20am
Permalink
hinging at hips
That is awesome to hear, militarymom...you will use this postural work for the rest of your life because it cures a thousand ills. Even I continue to be amazed. Proverbs, you ask a very important question. Clearly the lumbar spine is the most vulnerable area of the body in terms of loss of natural function. And when it degenerates it takes the rest of the body with it. Work slowly and carefully to restore full, wide radius lumbar curvature. Trust your body and trust the experience of women like Militarymom. When the lumbar spine is weak we must use the abs inappropriately to rise back up from bending at the hips. Gently work toward using "exclusively" (nothing in the body works alone) your glutes and back of your thighs. You should not be using your back muscles or abs (much). Pregnancy alone strengthens the glutes because they must strengthen to balance the huge belly. Hope this is legible...typing on my phone on the way to Santa Fe to go Scottish Country Dancing while my darling hubby holds down the WW fort.
Proverbs31Mama
June 25, 2017 - 10:35am
Permalink
HInging at Hips
Thank you, this helps! So does that mean I should bend at the knee a little to help engage my glutes until my back is stronger from using the posture? I know I am really picking this apart, but with the soreness I am dealing with, I am really trying to make sure I get it right so things adjust properly. Plus pregnancy ligaments relaxing makes me more prone to injury.
Proverbs31Mama
June 25, 2017 - 10:42am
Permalink
Hinging at Hips
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your responses Christine. I tend to be a worrier and despite knowing exactly what my OB/Gyn was going to tell me, it really sent me reeling. Finding this program has given me a sort of peace that I did not have with my previous management. And that is knowing that even if things worsen after delivery, I still have the tools to improve it. I can shrug it off and say "eh, it'll go back up." and enjoy my new baby without fearing for surgery in the future or fear that THIS baby has to be the last. The women on this forum speak in terms of years, not months. This is the first time I have been able to lean on a support group and it is already helping. Thank you!
Miss piggy
June 25, 2017 - 6:49pm
Permalink
Picking things off the floor /how to breathe when getting up
I have been everywhere and cannot find a definitive answer to how to get down and pick something off the floor, paper, dog dish, etc. Do I breathe in or out when I stand up. Also what's the best way to get up out of a chair. Do I exhale when I am getting up to stand. I have been recently diagnosed with uterine prolapse. I am 65, live alone and really don't have anyone to help. I've gone from taking care of the house and all yard work. I have bags of dog food to pick up. I am soo dispirited and can't get mind around this.
Proverbs31Mama
June 25, 2017 - 8:07pm
Permalink
Miss Piggy
I know exactly what you mean. I have 2 toddlers, pregnant with baby 3 and my husband and I have a farm with milk goats, pigs, chickens, turkeys, you name it. There is no way around constant bending, squatting, lifting, general work. I guess my instinct is to breath out on the way up, especially while I need to use a bit of tummy muscle to help. But I want to make sure I am doing it right.
Christine
June 25, 2017 - 8:36pm
Permalink
bending knees
Yes, while you are working into this you can bend your knees, but understand that the goal is to be able to hinge at the hips with totally straight knees and come back up effortlessly. The common yoga instruction to always hinge with bent knees is not anatomic. The load should be born evenly by gluteals and hamstrings. When you bend knees you transfer the load from gluteus maximus to the medial hamstrings. Eventually, the hamstring tendons become thick and tense, while GM atrophies. What is needed are long hamstrings and strong gluteals. Work slowly and carefully. Eventually bending over with straight knees and coming back up using buttocks and backs of thighs will feel great. Keep one long line from crown of head to tailbone.
I have just returned from a long day of dancing and need to go to bed. I have ballet class in the morning (my wonderful teacher lets me stay in WW posture!), but will get back to the forums tomorrow afternoon to address all current questions.
Love to all...
Christine
Proverbs31Mama
June 26, 2017 - 7:30am
Permalink
Bending Knees
So I finally figured this out last night! Still can't seem to do it with straight knees, but with a lot of concentration, I was able to activate my glutes into helping me rise up from a bend multiple times. I will tell you, this is a way of moving I don't think I have ever intentionally done in my life. Can you believe that? I didn't think it was possible as a way for my body to move without leaning into a sort of squat.
But my next question is this, how do you protect your knees through all of the WW posture and sitting? There are certain positions, like kneeling that I just can't do because my knees get aggravated. I have some old injuries. Sometimes after trying to stand in WW posture all day, my knees are sore. I know some of it is they get locked up with my own tension, but still would like to know how the mechanics are supposed to work to help protect them.
Christine
June 26, 2017 - 5:32pm
Permalink
knees
I’m so glad you are beginning to understand WW posture and movement! I grew up with very wonky knees - even dislocated one when I was sixteen years old…ouch! - and I can tell you (I know my ballet teacher would attest to this) I now have bomber knees after 20 years of WW. This is what results from natural human alignment, where the center of gravity is habitually positioned over the hips and knees.
First of all, the knees must be strengthened in natural posture. When the acetabula are balanced, the femurs and condyles of the knee are well-aligned as well. Walk with your feet pointing straight ahead and never hyperextend the knees! I used to walk with external rotation and stand with hyperextension - no wonder my knee dislocated. It will take time to make these musculoskeletal changes, especially when the bones themselves are misshapen. Wide-radius lumbar curvature has everything to do with knee alignment.
Another personal verification of WW posture and knee strength was when I started running up on my toes (metatarsals). My knees reacted so much that I thought I wasn’t going to be able to run that way. However it only took a very short while (couple of weeks?) before my knees adjusted, as they were already very strong from being well-aligned. And the amazing thing is that they stayed strong. If I don’t go out running for a few weeks, which happens sometimes, my knees do not have to adjust all over again.
Old injuries are tough. However, from my perspective we still should do what we can to pull soft tissues into normal human positions, rather than having muscles and ligaments stay short and tight. I took a bad spill a few years ago down three steps and onto the tile floor in my kitchen. My left ankle was bent underneath my body as I landed, and I felt certain the loud *snap!* I heard was bone breaking. To my astonishment it was only soft tissue damage, but soft tissue damage can be very severe. It took an entire year to heal completely and it still hurts if I spend too long sitting on the soles of my feet. However, I still sit that way to keep the tissues normally lengthened.
All that said, in many cases (particularly in older people) the very ends of tendons and ligaments ossify, making stretching pretty impossible. On our early morning walk today, my husband and I saw a man walking at almost 90º. There was someone who had severe soft-tissue ossification, causing him to be permanently bent over. Certain tissues in the body, like the anterior ligament of the spine, are especially prone to ossification. So, keep moving!
I hope this helps. Once we understand the general principles of WW posture and movement, each of us must experiment with our own body to find what works best.
Btw, I think it’s wonderful that you are raising babies, animals, and vegetables on your farm! We’ve helped many farm women become strong and well-aligned.
Christine
Proverbs31Mama
June 26, 2017 - 8:33pm
Permalink
The Farm
Your explanations on the knees issues is reassuring! Thank you!
Our farm is so much work! But it is worth it to me because it gives my children the opportunity to drink raw goat milk and eat eggs raised as organically as possible. We also raise meat rabbits and we have a garden. It all happens so much cheaper than it is to buy these items. And our feed is home mixed and fermented for each animal, so they are healthier too! My children are strong and capable, and have loits of bruises. But love the sunshine and the dirt! I wouldn't trade it!
I am interested in how you think this pregnancy, as my belly gets bigger will affect my prolapse? I don't want to get any hopes up about prolapse receding while I carry the weight of this baby, but I am also not totally sure about the mechanics of it all. It seem to me like the weight in my uterus should move up more freely in the WW posture. But there is also less room for my prolapsed bladder to move. I am not really overly worried, since I am still struggling just to get the posture down build up my muscles. I struggle with most with the shoulders, neck, and chest. But I am very fascinated by it all (I tend to obsess) and I can't get enough info. I do the same thing with natural birth, just obsess.
I have used positions, like an inversion, in the past to turn my babies head down by letting my uterus hang from its lower ligaments to allow it to work out any twists that were causing improper positioning.
Surviving60
June 27, 2017 - 4:04am
Permalink
Observations on breathing
I would like to say something here about belly breathing. When I started this work 7 years ago, I realized the difference between belly breathing and chest breathing, and how our incorrect posture reverses natural breathing. For me it was a simple matter.......if I remembered to keep the belly soft, the breathing mostly took care of itself, and chest breathing became a thing of the past.
I realize that some members have had more trouble with breathing. It may be helpful for them to focus their breathing on that spot between navel and breasts. Others may find this confusing and difficult to incorporate into the work, when it may not even be necessary to think about it at all, as was my experience. WW posture is pretty simple and basic. I learned it by focussing initially on only a couple of elements. Of course I have tweaked lots of things over the years. But the only time I really had to concentrate on breathing patterns was during exercise and firebreathing when the ins and out were critical to get right. - Surviving
Proverbs31Mama
June 27, 2017 - 8:12am
Permalink
Breathing
I have definitely struggled with getting breathing down, because when I lift my chest, it feels like I am not getting enough air for some reason. And this is despite directing air to midriff. Again, never know if this is affected by being pregnant, but it has been a frustration for me. I have even had a moment here and of being lightheaded.
So still trying to figure it all out
Christine
June 27, 2017 - 9:31am
Permalink
pregnancy and prolapse
Proverbs, I believe your pregnant belly will definitely pull your bladder forward. Please keep us posted!
Pregnancy does affect the workings of the lungs - until lightening occurs when the baby moves into the pelvis. You are already in WW posture, so concentrate most on keeping shoulders pulled down (not back!), chin pulled in and down, and feet pointing straight ahead when walking.
Proverbs31Mama
June 27, 2017 - 10:49am
Permalink
Pregnancy and Prolapse
Awesome! Guess there's no better time to start! My back was less sore yesterday after figuring out the glutes during bending, but now the backs of my thighs are so sore I can barely get them to work .But they are better after doing a light dance workout. I have always had tight thighs in the back, so it's not surprising.
So much to adjust since I have never moved my body this way, but my husband has been great and is learning to massage via youtube to help my muscles adjust hah! My main issue is that by the end of the day, my body is so tired that things just plain don't want to pull into any kind of posture anymore. So I have been napping midday and try to take any rests I need on my side so I don't slump into a neutral pelvis. My evenings are usually spent laying on my side in bed or on the couch and I skip evening dishes if need be to avoid doing them in the wrong posture. Tough work!
Aussie Soul Sister
July 16, 2017 - 9:51pm
Permalink
Proverbs31Mama / hinging at hips
hi Proverbs31Mama,
In my observation of how I hinge forward at the hips, I tend to ground myself, by feeling the soles of my feet evenly and strongly on the floor. I breath into the upper torso and hold that as I hinge forward.
I tend to do that to stop myself from unconsciously falling into the old habit of breathing out to hinge forward, which compromises pelvic organ support.
To come back up I ground my feet and I notice that I push upward from the bottom (sole) of the front half of my feet, feeling the whole sole on the ground as I rise.
After doing that with my feet my muscles in my bottom and back of legs take over. Using the stability of the ground/ floor, this gives the feet a small but powerful kind of surge of strength to start the upward movement.
I hope this helps,
All the best with much love and many blessings
Aussie Soul Sister