Urogynecologist lurking

…and a urogynecologist at that!! I know we have many of you lurking, as women have been recommending this site to their doctors for several years now and we’ve sent my books out to many an M.D.

I think calling the site “anti-surgery” is a bit simplistic. If we were mangled by an accident or taken suddenly ill by appendicitis I think most of us would choose surgery. However, I think you provide the best answer as to why so many women are turning away from the gynecologic approach to what in truth are orthopedic conditions…"doctors lack of knowledge about the symptoms and problems” we are experiencing makes it a little tough to continue to trust in operations that have over a century of failure behind them. The new sub-specialty of urogynecology has changed that reality none whatsoever.

I do thank you for taking the time to write in and please feel free to carry on the discussion…your English is just fine.

Wishing you well,

Christine

Do you mean that when we fail you will be here to pick us up and stitchus back together?

I have seen my Gynae and he does NOT advocate surgery unless totally necessary - So I think I will stick with that!

I find your comments somewhat disconcerting as this site is NOT just anti surgery - I myself had stomach surgery in March - The only surgery we are trying to avoid is the manglation of our insides by a supposed prolapse fix that inevitably leaves us all disabled by what we are unable to do. (I am already disabled so I wouldnt wanna make my life any more complicated)

If you just read on other sites the women who have had the surgery - They have in their siggys a list of all the further surgeries they have been under to fix the supposed fix and then to fix the fix of the supposed first fix.

I really think it would take an amazing Gynae to stand up and be counted and say there IS another way. Show women that birthing does not have to be such a damaging thing slashed open by episiotomies that are just quicker and easier for doctors to get the conveyor belt of women moving faster.

To be honest you say the ladies you see have a different approach than we do. Well - I would say if you gave every one of them the url to this site - Two or three months - Then they might very well not need you any more! I guess you wouldn't like that too much as your job would cease?

Not every country has Gynaes who are anti surgery - Seems alot of them are very pro surgery, moreso in countries that pay for their health care I feel.

Plus - Alot of Doctors seem so in love with themselves that us ordinary people are just minions - They tell us everything will be fixed after surgeries - Then we end up going back for a re-fix and not just in prolapse surgery.

I apologise but I really find your post somewhat condescending. I mean... How do you know we are not in the first true fix of this malady and you are in that cluster of people who will soon find out that this way is the best way? :-D Now wouldn't that be a turn up for the books! ;-)

Scuse any typos - It's 7.16am and am tiredddddddddd lololol

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

I tried to write that up last night, but it wasn't coming out right.
but yeah, what she said!

dr female...you write that you'd like to hear our comments about how drs could better communicate with us.
well, for one, I'd like drs to stop patronizing us when we turn down their services in favor of working hard on our own to support our natural design and capability for healing.

makes me think of the free formula samples new moms are given at the hospital 'in case breastfeeding doesn't work out'. how offensive! It'll work, all we need sometimes is a little bit of support and for someone to have faith in us and in our bodies.

*if* a woman is suffering so badly from prolapse that this work is not an acceptable option for her, she will seek out your surgical answers. but until she does, first, do no harm and offer her a less invasive option.

Granolamom got it in one - The doctors need to *first, do no harm *

They have done TONS of harm in this supposed fix! Maybe they need to look into a mirror at themselves and ask themseves 'Is trying to help enough - Or should i REALLY find an answer before I hack up a womans body beyond all help'

Think about it Dr - AFTER you have done this 'fix' There is no road back. There is no way to return to what it was before the internals of a woman who has had a weird looking mesh added (I know all about mesh Dr - I have a hernia mesh inside of me and I saw the meshes for Prolapse on their website - OMG that was icky looking)

You have stumbled accross far farrrrrrrrrrrrrr more than just a normal website here ;-)

THIS my friend - Is a Female REVOLUTION :-D

If a woman comes to you and states 'I want surgery I have tried ALL other alternatives and I am going into this with my eyes WIDE open' - Then that is one thing. But to be told what a fantastic FIX this is... Only to find out AFTER the fact - That you have jumped into a huge fire of surgeries FOR LIFE. Is totally out of order and unfair of a Dr to even try to tell any woman that this is the answer. Admit it to us - This is not the answer - Is it? Can you not admit this to us?

I really believe Doctors are so indoctrinated and blinded by the 'science' they are learning - That they do not see the field of beauty in front of their eyes.

Women have lived for hundreds of years with this. Women have coped. They didn't all just go to bed and lie there till they pop their clogs (die) - Women don't do that! They go on with life and lived it as best they could within their abilities.

I truly believe that ALL women should get with their Birthing book - A little card to this site. Some TRUE information on Kegels and how they can worsen things. Some TRUE advice on BIRTH and how to have a gentle birth. Some true advice on BEING A WOMAN.

I will be honest here - Hey - When am I not????? lol

I was 36 years old (Maybe 37 I forget) Before i truly knew where I peed from (LMAO@ME) - It wasn't something I ever really thought about! Having this prolapse (And the other two prolapses) Has opened my eyes to alot of things about being a woman to be honest.

Guess in a way I am lucky - I was too darn lazy to kegel myself to death after my first two pregnancies, I did after my third and thats what made things ten times worse - Ooh look - Stop 300+ Kegels a day and suddenly I feel human again - Cool eh.

I truly believe that Women need to have FACTS - True facts. And to be 100% honest - Certain websites on the net who like to hide behind their wardrobe doors pretending how fantastic the surgery is - Need to STOP BELITTLING WOMEN AND CONNING THEM THAT THIS IS THE ANSWER.

Do they not realise that to take someone else down the road to hell does not really give you salvation.

Would they not prefer to be able to say 'I saved her from what I went through - I saved her and in turn she will save many others'.

Why do we con ourselves that bad things are good when we know damned well they are not???? Do we truly believe this in the end if we say it enough times?

I go to many sites like this. Only ONE became 'Home'

I am home!

The first site I went to scared me to death with the lists of fix the fix of the fix of the fix surgeries - All within two years of each other.

Then I came here - I didn't understand a word that was said - I thought to myself - 'How can this Posture crapola work'???????

Ya know what?

IT FLIPPIN DOES WORK!

I then went through the 'But I hafta do tons of Kegels - They told me to'

Then I found - 'Well what the heck - I feel ten times better for this'

I remember in the beginning Christine must have had the patience of a saint with me as I was a KegelManiac (lol) She would try to explain things to me in 'words for the stupid' so I understood

Eventually a light went on in my brain.

W A H E Y

Look at me now???????? (OK don't I am ugly as sin)

In about August it will be 2 years since I fell into this site. It took like a month for me to stop doing everything I was urged not to do. Then a month, maybe two and OOH all of a sudden I was able to walk to the shops and back and IT WAS NOT PEEKING!

Mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn (Womannnnnnnn)

That felt EMPOWERING.

I AM WOMAN - HEAR ME ROAR

OK I wrote a book - lolllllllll sorry.

Putting it bluntly - Sometimes it takes someone completely out of the loop to fall over something that is as obvious to all as night and day.

It will now take one very strong minded Dr to get the word out to all that this is ONE of the GREAT non surgical solutions that ALL women should try before they jump under the knife.

And I for one will not be a guinea pig for anyone who is just practicing. If it worked 100% - Or even 75% - You would very rarely ever get a woman returning for 'help'

Yet I reckon the 'happy' percentage must be very very small - Or maybe women who never wanna lift anything above 5-10lbs. And who never wanna live their life to the full.

I'll be damned if I am gonna go under the knife with a smile on my face - When I know that smile will last only as long as the anaeshetic.

Then I would wake to a whole new road - A complete life that I would no longer recognise.

OK I turned into drivel now I will shut up

lol

Group Huge WWG (Whole Woman Girls)

((((HUGS))))

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

you don't hold back and you tell it like it is.
and I agree with every word you wrote (but I doubt you're ugly as sin).

when I found my prolapse I was 33 (I think?) and I DID know where I peed from...I took human gross anatomy, dissected the cadaver alongside med students. took anatomy & physiology given by the same professors that instructed med students. so I got a decent education. or so I thought, because although I took semesters worth of anatomy and kinesiology and knew my muscles inside and out I NEVER KNEW THAT ALL THE BOOKS ARE WRONG and that women don't spend their lives in lithotomy positions (isn't that the position in all the diagrams???)

so ha! on me, one who knew all about 'good posture' and the 'importance of kegels'. I had it all wrong. In order to get it right you need to be able to say 'hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe there's another way to look at this, to address it'. after years of med school indoctrination and with the entire medical community behind them, its no wonder a dr would have a difficult time thinking outside the box. especially when it would negatively impact their livelihood (fewer surgeries).

and sue hit another nail on the head. A WOMAN CAN LIVE WELL WITH PROLAPSE. it doesn't have to be surgically fixed. imagine that, living with an imperfection. I choose that, along with the wrinkles showing up around my eyes and the spider veins on my thighs.
I'm hoping to live to be a very old woman, and I'm going to look like one too. no elective surgeries for me. and that's what these prolapse repairs are for the most part. elective surgeries. how many women here have posted the scare tactics used by drs? fix it now before it gets worse, falls out, etc.
hmph. I think not.

christine has truly inspired me, not only does this work actually help stabilize prolapse, but it strengthens us as well. physically, emotionally, spiritually.

can we say the same for surgery????

I actually took and passed Human Biology

Guess they never asked any questions about Humans - lollllllll

Actually - I think this year with all its hassles I have been thru (NON prolapse) I think my face has started to fall towards my feet - lol
Can't say I actually like this one - lmao. Luckily I am such a worrywart I think I would love surgery (Scared of pain tho) To fix my face BUT - Being the wimp I am I couldnt do it cos I would worry my face back to the floor again - ROFL, so I will hafta stick with what I have been given - Ugly - Fat - Icky - Prolapsed - FloorFaced - the lot ;-)

Sue
Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Unfortunately the law of gravity gets us all. Even if a person gets a face lift how long would it last? All surgery is risky and can come undone.
For an instant face lift "SMILE." Is there anything more beautiful to see than a mother smiling at her child no matter what the age of the child?
Just my thoughts on aging. Remember all you have accomplished and take pride in it.
Flora

hi

Doc. i got the impression from you're letter that we just haven't found the right surgeon yet.. i.e if us prolapse experts bettered our communication skill's and were well trained enough (to uro gyneie level)then the issue would be resolved.

There is no recognition in there that surgery can be highly problematic as some-one else said so brilliantly, leading to subsequent serious's of surgeries to deal with the non-effective first one and all the attendant prob's that brings.

Surgery is simply "a different approach".

My guess is that you have you're heart in the right place, you've trained to essentially help women and you've come on here to improve the way you do that, but i think you've gotta think about re-evaluating the paradigm you are educated into and that's tough work for us all.

Best wishes

Anne-helen

P.s - facelift's - we had a lady into student clinic with chronic neck and shoulder problem's in recently, the teacher found a scar behind her ear (face-lift) and we were able to identity that as the cause. He likes to show us a little visual thing to impress upon us the importance of scars from surgery or otherwise. He pulls up at the top of his t-shirt or sweater and ask's us to observer how the entire top is stretched right down to where it's tucked in his trouser's. Same for fascia except that connects to organ's etc..sorry rambling, but just in case you were real real tempted to nip n' tuck, There is cosmetic acupuncute. Side fx free!

I was told I would "need" surgery. I have grade two Cyst & Rect...
I was 6 weeks post partum at the time and really the suggestion shouldn't have been made at all. I went to PT for a month and only noticed improvement after I quit. Some women get relief from PT--for me my rectocele got worse. As long as I stay constipation free I do not have any negative symptoms. I stay away from all tight clothing and I do not lift heavy things anymore but I really haven't changed anything else--except eating better and posture.
For me the bonus with prolapse has been a much better sex life. I don't know why but I feel sensations I never felt before. I mean it is a real change for me...! My husband too! The Dr said I would feel loose and my husband wouldn't like sex until I had surgery...OPPOSITE. He said everything is tighter. I am 6 months post partum now and I have even better control of my muscles.
For me I had a really caring husdand...very gentle and understanding so I got over the fear pretty quick...so over-all I live better with prolapse. Better than before I had it I guess...I would have to say!!

dr. female, I am glad to see you here. I am glad you let us all know what you do for a living.
I do not think you will research this quite the way we have. When I found out I had POP I was pretty interested to learn what it was- of course every single thing I read was pretty scary until I made it here and read and read and read for weeks.
I am guessing you won't do that. If I didn't have POP I wouldn't have either.
I love to see health-care professionals doing continuing education. If there is anyway you can make reading Christine's book count for CEU you should do it!
Sometimes in life we stumble, amazingly, onto a lamp lit path. Walking down this path changes our perspective, our values, even our lives. I hope that this is what is going to happen to you and then in turn that you will help guide women to this most empowering forum and to the safest, best choice for them as individuals (what ever that may be).
I hope you see from this website what all women want- respect for their bodies- especially the most sacred parts. I hope that one day soon you will reassure a woman who thinks that she is defective that she is absolutely not.
Welcome to the forum-

reading your post made me smile. I may have to print it out to hang on the fridge for the days when I'm feeling less than attractive.

you sound like a beautiful woman :)

Thank you for being here--I personally think it is wonderful you are looking at an "alternative" perspective on prolapses, alternative at least to the medical model. I truly hope that this is able to influence your practice, and the support you offer to women.

I just wanted to share what I think is the most important thing a doctor can do around this--give women confidence in their body, and its ability to heal itself. I have said this before, but the most beneficial thing to me has been that no doctor has told me I needed surgery (which before I read about the surgery was very frustrating as I just wanted this gone, and that was the only way I could imagine!!!). The surgeon I saw did discuss surgery, but always in conjunction with the word choice. But he also emphasized my bodys' ability to heal.

I have been told over and over how much healing my body would do especially in this first year post partum, and though I found it hard to believe, it really helped me to get through this. Instead of concentrating on how bad things were, it gave me hope to get through each day and look for ways to heal myself.

And everyone was right...I have gone from grade 2-3 rect and cyst to grade 1 / 1.5 in less than 4 months. I have found great benefit from Christine and the other womens wisdom on this site, help from physio, and huge relief from more alternative therapies such as accupuncture and homeopathy. I now feel my greatest challenge is my mind--believing that my body can stay in this healing state.

I hope that you too can instill in women the confidence I have been given over and over by the doctors and physio I have seen since I developed prolapses--because that is I do believe, the greatest gift women can get--and one you are in a position to give.

Hi DrFemale
I come from laidback Australia and I have just returned from a lengthy break. One of the things I did while I was away was to visit Quebec where I tried tentatively to remember and use the French I learned for many years as a teenager. It is hard, and very easy to misconstrue cultural mannerisms. I don't know whether this is relevant or not. You have done very well in your post, and I hope you return to respond further.

Please do not be offended by the openness and straightforward talk you read here. It is not personal. Many of us experience great fellowship here that we experience nowhere else, and one of the things we have learned is to laugh, both at others and and ourselves. Laughter is great medicine.

There is also a fair bit of anger among some of the Members of the Forum. If you read their stories you may come to understand why.

There are many pro-surgery sites (re prolapse) on the Internet where it is impossible to post anything that questions, without criticism, the wisdom of accepting a surgical solution for prolapse. The posts are simply deleted and often the UserID blocked as well. I regard this as censorship which prevents debate and stifles truth.

You will not find censorship of this type on this Forum. We are free to have our say and stay as long as we like as long as our comments are constructive. You too are welcome to stay. Does this tell you anything?

Before you dismiss non-surgical management of pelvic organ prolapse I suggest that you purchase or borrow a copy of Christine Kent's book, Saving the Wholewoman. It is available from www.wholewoman.com, this Forum's mother site. The testimonials in the front speak for themselves.

One of the most powerful sections in this very well-researched book is a summary of most of the types of surgery currently done for urinary incontinence and pelvic organ prolapse. The references are all from highly respected peer-reviewed scientific journals. Their accuracy is without question. In this chapter the author describes each surgical procedure, the documented risks and potential complications of each for a relatively short time following surgery. Even without the graphic descriptions of surgery it is not easy reading.

Where the results are not satisfactory for the woman reversal of these procedures is not straightforward, and may be impossible, particularly where hysterectomy is involved.

There are no studies of the longterm success rates of these types of surgeries. None. Zero. Even the gynaecologists agree on this. For a woman in her mid 30's facing surgery, this often means the risk of a lifetime of surgery ahead of her should she go ahead, particularly if hysterectomy is involved.

Is it any wonder that women want to try non-surgical management first when so many of us have demonstrated with our own experiences that Wholewoman methods do seem to prevent worsening of prolapses, do reverse symptoms and certainly encourage looking after our diet and bodies better? In addition any one of us can turn to a gynaecologist at any time and say they would like to try surgery instead. It is completely reversible.

My own experience has shown me that the advice given by my doctor that I needed surgery in the next 12 months or my prolapses would all get much worse and need far more radical surgery, to be completely wrong. Two and a half years later my symptoms are negligible, only noticable when I don't look after my diet, or am premenstrual or fail to lift heavy objects mindful of my posture. And the premenstrual thing will soon be behind me! Can you see why I don't want surgery? What would I gain? I may 'eat my words' in future years and opt for surgery. I hope I am humble enough to admit it then, but I am not holding my breath ;-). I can only think that I will make the right decision for my body then, as I think I have now.

Please read Christine Kent's book. You may be surprised at the rationale behind our opinions.

Cheers

Louise

Louiseds I haven't been here in months! Got a job, and don't have a lot of free time anymore! Every once in a while I stop in to read!
Your last paragraph was inspiring! I feel exactly this way and it's been 2 or even 3 years since I cancelled the surgery date! On my bad days I think about the surgery, but then the fear sets in! All I do to help my condition right now is make sure I take a fiber pill every night! Constipation was probably the biggest reason for the prolapse! I joined when there was 472 members, I think! How about you? Well, I do eat better and hardly any beef! Nancy

Hi Nancy, good to read that you call in occasionally. It is great to hear from women who have been doing this for a while. I think it is important to still call back, as there are new women almost every time I login, and inevitably they are scared and feel that their body has let them down and other stuff that is new and unpleasant for them. They need to hear the voices of experience reassuring them that it is not the end of the world, and that they do not have to get on the slippery slope that is surgery.

I have been doing Wholewoman techniques for about 2 1/2 years now. I still have a lot to learn, and still have back pain and stiffness problems that cause me to flatten my lumbar curve, and still have to correct my posture, but it certainly beats the other alternative. At least I know that there are things that I can do to make my situation better. All I have to do is do them! And it certainly is not getting any worse. We need to let new women know that they too can get on top of this thing and not let it control their lives.

Great to hear from you.

Cheers

Louise

After my diagnosis the doctor recommended a hysterectomy. I was 8wks postpartum. I believe he was trying to scare me into this procedure. He told me I had a 60 yr old body and I'm 29. I hiccuped-BAWLED for two straight days. Maybe got two hours of sleep during that time. If it wasn't for my friends praying for me I'd still be a basket case. This was two weeks ago. I've come to my senses - since then. I hate that doctors are so cavalier about removing women's reproductive organs when there is nothing wrong with them - except that they are in the wrong place. I value my uterus and wish to remain intact. Its apart of what makes me a woman. I don't know about the rest of us but with me, my uterus contracts when I have an orgasm. From that, my entire body throbs with powerful rushes. I can't imagine what orgasm would be like without it. I wonder if this is why I don't experience pain during labor since the uterus is contracting during orgasm and during labor. Anyway, just giving you my 2 cents.

Hi Fruitful Womb

I think you have just stumbled on a very good point.

If offered hysterectomy 12 months after that pregnancy, instead of 8 weeks after, you might have laughed at him, or growled at him instead of being reduced to a bawling mess for two day.

We women can be emotional creatures, and often just when a steady head is needed instead of a fragile heart. Recommending a hysterectomy can be heard by a fragile heart as pressuring you to have a hysterectomy, and the fragile heart prevents you from asking him more about his reasons for wanting to do a hysterectomy.

I think history has shown us how differently men think about problem solving from how women think. This is why I think it is very important to take in the gynos recommendation as just another piece of information for the puzzle, and look and wait for other pieces to emerge.

I was actually told that I needed a repair job to address my prolapses, and within 12 months, because after that it would be much more complicated to fix. That was a family doctor. So off I went to the gyno who basically had his pen poised over the booking form for a hysterectomy. Fortunately I had already taken to the Net and was much too informed to swallow that one. I had a bit of a chuckle before walking out and saying, "Don't call me, I'll call you!"

Oh, the power of gathering information before submitting to anybody's scalpel! It is now almost 3 years down the track, and no, it is not any worse. It is much better, because I now know how to wear my prolapses and how to look after them.

It is so important to keep yourself as the one who makes the decisions about your own health and body. You know your body. On the other hand you also need to take on the mantle of responsibility for finding out stuff you need to make these decisions, and that may mean consulting multiple doctors. If you make a wrong decision, sure, you suffer, but it is still up to you to decide what to do about it, again with all information at hand.

I don't know what the future holds for my body. I may go back and have surgery one day, but I will do it knowing what I am letting myself in for. I can't see why, but you never know. For now I am just fine.

After all it is you (or me) who has to live with the surgically changed body for the rest of your (or my) life.

Cheers

Louise