When is urinary incontinence not urinary incontinence??

Submitted by louiseds on July 17, 2007 - 3:02am
Body: 

Hi All

www.seekwellness.com/incontinence/glossary_of_incontinence_terms.htm defines urinary incontinence thus. “Involuntary or accidental loss of urine sufficient to be a problem. There are several types of UI, but all are characterized by an inability to restrain or control urinary voiding (see mixed urinary incontinence, nocturnal enuresis, overflow incontinence, stress incontinence, transient urinary incontinence, urge incontinence)”. That should sum it up pretty well as far as we are concerned on this site.

I think “sufficient to be a problem” is where it gets hard to define. During my googlings this morning I came across a reference to an article entitled something like “2000 onwards – The No Leak Years”. I have been unable to find it again, but it got me to thinking about modern life and how we like to be so clean all the time.

There is a myriad of products available to keep us not only clean but looking clean, feeling clean, smelling clean, and probably even sounding clean! Cleanliness is also associated with being sexy and attractive (as opposed to previous eras where it only meant being godly). Previous generations only got one bath a week if they were lucky, or if they were the youngest in the family they got to have the last bath in water that the rest of the family had all been through, no matter how dirty the rest of the family had been were when they got in the tub. Now only having a bidet in the ensuite is a sign of being civilised.

All women come to realise eventually that gravity is real, affecting some individuals more than it affects others. It also takes longer to affect some than others, and it affects some body parts more than others. Those who die young are the only ones to escape gravity’s grip, but I could surmise that being alive and a bit droopy is better than, well …

Muscle tone also decreases as we get old, which has its own effects on continence as well as mobility and general wellbeing. And of course we all know that loss of fascial support to the bladder and urethra is a contributor.

Most of us with incontinence on this Forum suffer from stress and/or urge incontinence so I will confine my arguments to these.

I do suffer from stress incontinence but it is hardly noticeable with Wholewoman posture. I no longer enjoy playing sports like netball, so I rarely have that jarring incontinence. I can happily jog in posture. I only have little dribbly leaks on a few days a month. It is certainly nothing like the stress and urge incontinence that I suffered as a school-aged child (which may be how long I have had it). Do I still have incontinence?

I do have urge incontinence occasionally, less than once a week and always after standing up after sitting, especially carrying objects. I can do a deep forward bend from the hips when I stand. This seems to reposition my bladder and urethra so that the urge does not overtake me 15 seconds later, and I can move off graciously to my next activity. So do I have urge incontinence still?

I sometimes change my knickers halfway through the day just so I feel fresh, as I might have a little leakage during the morning for one reason or another. I also do try to wear clean knickers as it seems to be a factor for me in reducing susceptibility to thrush and other nasties like UTI’s, particularly in summer. Sometimes I don’t wear any knickers, and if I do leak the drips just land on my pubes and evaporate.

Folklore tells us that older women usually leak a bit. It is not politically correct to agree with that any more. But to be pragmatic about it, older women do usually seem to leak at least a little, sometimes.

There is so much stigma attached to urinary incontinence. I wonder how many women would be absolutely honest about it if asked in a survey, particularly if it is a verbal survey? I wonder how many women admit to themselves that they do leak a little, sometimes? I think there is a lot of personal perception in the whole business.

We folk with Internet access are like to live in developed countries where cleanliness is something we can realistically strive for. We have media all around us exhorting us to be not only cleaner but thinner, cooler, hotter, faster, smoother, less hairy, younger looking, sexier, more relaxed, more alert, more with it, more laid back, more sophisticated, more minimalistic, more up to date, more, more, more!!!

And so what if I do leak a little bit sometimes. It is sometimes a bit of a nuisance for a few minutes but there are always clean knickers in the drawer, and people are not in the habit of smelling my knickers anyway, so who will know? The dog? So what? He is not going to tell, and he is probably much more interested in the smell of other doggy-interesting things on me than that.

So, sometimes I think it is really not worth worrying about, even if a doctor can tell me I have the condition described to me in words of more than three syllables and suggest surgical procedures of four syllables or more that will “cure” me and free me from this self-defined tyranny that is wee in my knickers.

What do others think?

Cheers

Louise

howdidthishappen

July 17, 2007 - 5:30am

hey louise:

this is SUCH an interesting and provocative post you started here, and let me first say thank you for it. honestly, i know it's JUST the conversation i need to have right now.

you know, i have moments of definitely thinking "who cares" with this leaking going on. it comes and goes,that's for sure -- though i am in a most definite "comes" cycle. but, i put a cloth pad in there, and go on my way. there is no REAL reason for it to affect me at all. my husband doesn't view me any differently, it has had NO impact on our sex life and his interest in me sexually. SO. why DO i care?

i think what you wrote about stigma is certainly right on. as with all things about me, i am talking about it with friends and pretty much no one cops to having it, save me. when it first started, i told a friend (who is also an md, i will say) and, of course, she said," oh, my mother had that. you can get that fixed." i told her i really did not want surgery and she then said," you want to go around smelling like urine?" that certainly stayed with me. SMELL LIKE URINE? sounds like someone who should be in diapers in a nursing home. her immediate idea of a "surgical cure" pissed me off like hell (no pun intended) as i don't buy into that at all. and the notion that i would smell like urine was just so extreme and, well...false. i am certain i have NOT smelled like urine any step of the way, but it just spilled out of her mouth and flipped me out. and, i must confess, it is haunting to me.

as, i think, the sense that this is making me feel very very very old. and that scares me. i keep thinking: if this is me at 43, what will things be like in 10 years? there's a lot of fear, alot of uncertainty. but, as you also rightly write, the culture we live in is about youth and it is certainly blowing my mind to find myself in my just-about mid 40's, to be in this stage of life. i have felt it, really felt it, that shift from youth to not-youth and it has been difficult for me, in all honesty. and, when people say things like: oh, you're only as young as you feel, it gets my back up because though i MAY feel like i'm 20 inside, it would be denying reality to say that i'm anything but 43. and there ARE very real changes that happen to bodies that they start to get somewhat older. and i don't mean that in an awful, negative way but in a real way. i don't want to deny my age, at all. there's a lot of wisdom and experience i have gathered through this life of mine and to talk about "feeling like i'm 20" (or some such thing) feels like a continuation of that denial. at least for me. i am 43. i see that a 43 year old body is not without it's weaknesses (as well as strengths) and i want to be honest about that.

however, as you write, if i think about the actuality of it: really, WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? WHAT? it is affecting my quality of life ONLY becauses I am permitting that to happen. that is the truth of it. just as i did when i was first "diagnosed" with the prolapse that had been there, no doubt, for quite some time and i suddenly terrified to walk or move around. and yet the day before the doctor had told me, i had walked my usual miles and miles without that roiling in my brain.

whew...i think this has gone on for a bit now. i hope i haven't gone off thread at all. it really is such a great topic, louise, and i'm really interested in hearing what other women are thinking about this.

susan

Clonmacnoise

July 17, 2007 - 5:50am

I think Louise is very right in what she says about the way life just hands you one thing or another. Last week a friend lost a child by drowning, my cousin came down with cancer, my uncle died, my business partner can no longer climb stairs with her arthritis, and one of my teachers has more serious arthritis which affects her teeth.

As I was sitting having lunch with a friend yesterday who has all three prolapses as well, we laughed at being mid fifties and still in good shape with a few skews - Then I realized just how lucky I am with my problems. This is a hurdle like other hurdles, but it's not going to kill me, and I'm still doing my job. Today I will take 40 kids swimming and I may even go off the board - with my prolapses.

Yoga practice and the posture really do help make a huge difference. Sure it's hard to do those exercises when you're exhausted and just ready to sit and have a beer, but it's all part of it and it means life not death. I'm sure doing yoga in a 100 degree room is a lot easier than going for chemo or making funeral arrangements for a child. I'm counting my blessings.

Change what you can change; be happy with what you cannot.

Beejay

July 17, 2007 - 8:06am

Hi Susan,

I'm the same age as you and I'm feeling the same way! That is, I suddenly feel very old. I think I'll never again be able to tramp for miles across fields without worrying about things like posture etc. Since I was diagnosed with the cystocele/urethrocele 2-3 weeks ago I've hardly walked anywhere. I guess I'm scared stuff will start falling out when I'm miles from home.

What Louise said was very good. It is good to put things into perspective. I've got a lovely family, a roof over my head, I don't have to take loads of prescription drugs for anything, so apart from this POP my health can't be too bad.

Good for you, being able to tell your friends! I haven't managed to do that yet. I've only told close family so far. It's good this forum exists so we can all share our experiences.

I'm still getting used to walking in the posture. When I'm more confident I'll try walking across the fields a bit and see how I feel. One day at a time...
Beejay

Christine

July 17, 2007 - 9:00am

You wrote the post I didn’t have time, but wanted to, Louise!

At the very beginning of this forum I wrote a post entitled “Love Your Urine.” Okay, our readership dropped by half, but hey, I was expressing a truth that a lot of women cannot hear.

If you look through studies on sexual satisfaction after reconstructive pelvic surgery you will find that researchers are able to slant the numbers for one reason alone: THAT WOMEN ABHOR LEAKING AND AFTER A SLING IS PUT IN WOMEN ARE OVERJOYED THEY ARE NO LONGER LEAKING DURING SEX. Never mind that a huge chunk of these same women will go on to develop severe enough problems that sex will become impossible.

Here are a few facts:

• The first pass of healthy urine (before the body starts to dry out and urine becomes concentrated) is good to drink if you are stranded in the desert.

• Many health nuts drink their urine (I can’t recall the benefits).

• Men find female urine very sexy…they like to smell it, feel it, and drink it. If your sex life is dull, pee on him!

• Female urine has pheromones that attract the male of our species.

• Female urine is a great lubricant during sex.

• Fresh female urine does not smell bad.

• We ARE large animals.

• If we go several days without bathing we begin to smell like large animals. This is not a disease.

• Toss the knickers and put on a clean cotton dress every day – any bit of leaking will likely evaporate.

:) Christine

granolamom

July 17, 2007 - 11:29am

susan, you know what I think of that comment your friend made to you?
you said she's a dr, right? so she's probably been around older people who DID reek of urine. sad to say, but we don't treat our older folk too well, do we? I've worked in hospitals and long term care facilities. I've seen people forced to sit in old urine and feces too long, either because of shortage of staff or because of staff indifference.
that's another rant altogether.

but I agree, a little bit of leakage isn't the biggest problem in the world. thankfully we have access to clean clothes and the ability to dress ourselves when we need/want to. I am SURE you don't smell like urine. It was probably a knee-jerk comment (an insensitive one at that) that your friend made. I can see where it came from.

Therese

July 17, 2007 - 12:52pm

Susan so cool to see you post again even if it is from a bit of a leaky boat!
I have been thinking a lot about this...women saying really nasty things to other women thoughtlessly as your friend did. I am sure she is normally kind and caring but here comes this completely nasty comment--knowing you are suffering!
Where does this come from? Some kind of competition?
But that doesn't make sense...if it were competition then she would happy you were leaking--if she is not--she would have one up on you right? Is it this feeling that if it happens to you it will happen to her? I remember when I was pregnant and I really wanted a certain sex child--(I got every sexed child I wanted when I wanted I will say...! When I wanted a girl...gotta girl...when I wanted a boy gotta boy!--all five times...Ha Ha!) being super ANNOYED when some other woman would have a baby and it would be the sex I wanted I would think "JEEZ...the supply is probably running lower now and I won't get what I want!!!" I realized it was irrational but I would think it every time for a second...and then go through the list of who had what...and then realize I was close to the edge of INSANITY!
Or you hear a dreaded child birth story and inside you cringe and for a moment think "this can't happen to me...she must have done something WRONG" and then "why did she let that happen ??? She should have been better so I would not have to fear this..."

Maybe that is the whole deal...why we are so often hurt by other females about leaking or prolapse etc.
Maybe we think we are so a like as women because we share birth we often cannot be there for the other unless we suffer alike? The fear of suffering in the exact same way is just insurmountable until we do suffer something?? Look at women who suffer with breast cancer--they don't seem to have the same issue now with mean comments we do right? They have gotten together it seems and pulled the rest of us with them.

I am sorry she said that and if the main thing I have learned from prolapse is to be much more understanding of other women--and to REALLY care and even care about myself--well it is an important thing and a great virtue...

I love your comments about leaking Christine and I believe in all that you wrote--but I have a husband who would faint dead away if I leaked...and told him (If it happens in the future which I guess it probably will...I won't tell him--and I would bet unless there is a flood ...he wouldn't know!--there seems to always be so much he doesn't know unless I tell him :)! I am such a nice wife huh??) I wonder if it depends on the kind of mom you had growing up for men in how they view things like this...If you had a very affectionate and earthy mom compared to someone stand-off-ish and at arms length--I don't think my husband was ever in love with his mom like my boys have been with me..in and out of love...ha!
I think if he was he was spurned--or felt spurned...There are times I have to be careful with how real I get...breaks my little heart at times but I can't drag him along...just baby steps...

MeMyselfAndI

July 17, 2007 - 2:32pm

I was walking on Dartmnoor last weekend - My period was due on the Sunday and we walked on the Saturday - It wasnt the lumpiest of ground as I have zero balance and am on walking stick.

But we walked - and nothing bad happened. I didnt even need to pee in middle of nowhere which was a worry for me lolllllll

I have been in posture for what - Ummm - Maybe 2yrs now and I am amazed by what I CAN do!

You wanna walk the fields and Moorlands - YOU CAN.

I never thought I would be able to for a myriad of reasons not just POP ones. But I did walk a long ways for me - Tired - Yeah I was exhaustamacated - But my prolapse did not even give me one teeny problem :)

So - You can do it :) Just be in posture and give it time :) One day at a time - As you say

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

louiseds

July 17, 2007 - 10:07pm

Therese, you are having some very profound thoughts, particularly about irrational thinking, the things we share as women and our shared identities, the need to suffer along with other women, the hidden agenda behind thoughtless comments (Granolamom too!), learning to love and becoming more resilient through suffering, being careful with our men, and the importance of loving your sons well.

Gee, wouldn't be without the men in my life for quids, but they can be sensitive and vulnerable creatures (just like us!)! We have to be so gentle with them, but it sure pays off. Cute, isn't it?

Cheers

Louise

Beejay

July 18, 2007 - 7:52am

Sue, thanks for telling me about the Dartmoor walk - it's very encouraging. And what a great place to walk - lucky you!

Staying in the posture seems to be the key. I walked around town today, carrying bags etc. but I tried to stay in the posture, and felt fairly okay apart from my back which is still complaining!

Today I looked sideways on in a mirror as I went into the standing posture, and was surprised as my backside didn't stick out a mile like I thought it would. So then I start to worry that I'm not doing it right! I can't stick it out when I'm walking anyway, so I'm sort of concentrating on the upper body and also letting the abdomen come forward over the pubic bone - so hopefully the backside will sort itself out!

Do you do a long walk like the Dartmoor one, everyday? And roughly how long did it take (or how many miles)? If I did, say, a 50 min walk every day, (in posture) would that be overdoing it? I'd like to be able to walk regularly as there's osteoporosis in my family so I need to do weightbearing exercise to prevent it.

Thanks for your help:)

Beejay

MeMyselfAndI

July 18, 2007 - 8:49am

No I dont do that every day. That was the first time I had ever been there :)

Walking is good - But I am disabled so it felt like forever to me but wasn't as long as I would have liked... I would work your way up to as long as you wanna walk and see what your body says to you :)

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg