Anyone out there who has had 2 surgeries to fix pop?

Dear Hazel,

I have to say that although I am not experiencing the same thing at this time I am truly sorry that you are!! There certainly do seem to be women who have had more than one surgery for POP, though not so many here because most of us have not gone down the surgical route at this point.

I hope that perhaps someone else here can offer some suggestions for you and it may be that if you follow some of the things described here that you can get some relief from some of the symptoms of POP. There have been women here who have had hysterectomies and have been trying out the wholewoman techniques but I don't think we hear back from any of them regularly.

In the meantime I wish you lots of luck with the PT. There are women here who have done PT and have found it has helped them in varying degrees. You could search "physical therapy" and see the many posts about it from different people. I send you big hugs too. :)

Michelle xxxx

I am sorry to hear of your problems. Afraid I also have not had surgery but wanted to say something...

I hope you can find a way through this.

I have read on other sites of many people who have had quite a few surgeries, to re-fix the initial fix.

I hope that someone can come in and give you some advice on this.

((HUGS))
Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

My physical therapist works with woman who have had repeated POP surgeries, as well as those choosing to avoid the surgical route. She says the issue with having to repeat surgeries usually is the failure to instruct the woman to strengthen the pelvic floor after surgery. She says for a successful outcome this is the key.

Hi Annma

Do you can really believe your PT when she says the thing that causes repeat surgeries is "not strengthening the pelvic floor after surgery"?

I suggest strongly that you get a hold of a copy of Saving the Whole Woman by Christine Kent and find out what they do to your body while they are in there. Even the doctors are continually trying to find out new ways of 'pinning things up' the first time, admitting that current and past procedures are (much) less than perfect. They are continually trying to perfect surgical repair solutions so that repeat surgery will not be required. They would not be doing this if post-operative care was the main cause of repeat surgeries.

The litany of potential side effects and complications of surgery is there in the book for you to see. It is all out of peer-reviewed scientific journals, and has taken Christine years of research to put together. It is all *true*.

The main problem with almost all types of pelvic organ prolapse and urinary incontinence surgery is *the surgery itself*. These procedures were invented to make body parts do things they were never designed to do, and the body will compensate for that damage in many ways, including scarring and pain, further prolapse and difficulty with elimination. This has very little direct connection with a strong pelvic floor.

IMHO, if anything, a woman should ensure her pelvic floor is strong before the op, not wait until after the op. (that is if you accept that the operation will produce any longterm nett gain in the first place, which I personally don't).

Look, I'm sorry if I am arguing at cross-purposes here. We may not even be talking about the same sort of surgery. Forgive me if I have misunderstood your post, but I really couldn't stomach the idea that the main problem with POP repair procedures was something that was the fault of bad post-operative care. It may be a minor factor, but that's all.

The main problem is that many of these procedures are done at all, under the guise of fixing anything.

Cheers

Louise

same old, same old
I'm so very tired of hearing that POP or poor surgical outcome is the result of 'failure to strengthen the pelvic floor'.
a while ago we had a thread on that. I'm not the only one here who had pelvic floor muscles of steel and then went on to develop POP. I probably could've cracked walnuts with those muscles, I'd been kegeling so diligently!
its a crock, that's all. drs think they've done the right thing and it failed so it must be due to 'weak pelvic floor'. blame the victim at its best.

in any case, the 'pelvic floor' is not supposed to be the floor at all. that's like tipping your living room on its side and expecting the drapes to hold up the sofa.
you can staple those drapes to the carpet first, and they may do a better job of it, but not for long.

Oh Granolamom

You have a wonderful way of explaining thing ROFL! Maybe that's why I can never keep my living room tidy. It always looks like somebody has tipped it sideways.

I can use all the staples, gaffer tape and superglue in the world and somebody will always find a way of messing it up ... eventually. Anything that is fastened contrary to gravity will eventually fall, 'specially if it made of Jello.

Cheers

Louise

Louise, The original poster here has already had 2 surgeries. I was relaying the PTs words to her because of her situation, not to imply that if kegels had been done, then surgeries would have been successful. My PT does not believe in surgery, but she is just horrified that woman can endure several failed surgeries, never being instructed to strengthen their own bodies. She does not have Christine's book (yet) but disagrees with surgery because of what she has seen. She even has POP herself and manages it with exercise. She assigns many exercises that are similar to the original WW book, but also gives instructions on large amounts of kegels. The kegels seem to make my cystocele "peak" more, so I don't do many-but do some because my mom (in her 60s) cured herself of urinary issues this year using "beyond kegels" so I think to keep continent (sp?), they may be helpful. I am learning as I go and certianly do not know it all. BTW my living room looks like it was tilted and turned on its end by afternoon each day. That's the work of a force greater than gravity-small children!

Ok Annma, sorry if I misunderstood you. I *think* I can see what you mean now. I think you are referring to incontinence, where pelvic floor muscle activity can be an important factor in reducing the incontinence. You were not referring to pelvic floor muscle strength as a physical floor, holding up prolapsed organs, were you? Is the following more the meaning of what the PT said?

"The pelvic floor needs to be strengthened to enable the bladder sphincter to work properly once again with the pressure of prolapse removed, or the repairs will not work nearly as well. Many women are not given sufficient instruction to ensure that they strengthen the pelvic floor as part of rehabilitation, so the surgery often ultimately fails."

If this is what you meant, then I can see that there is some logic in what she says, but after repairs gravity will be pulling these organs downwards at a funny angle (thinking of Granolamom's drapes here) aided by intraabdominal forces, regardless of whether or not the woman has a strong pelvic floor. It still remains that the organs are suspended by the wrong supports after repairs, and are unable to resolve the intraabdominal forces that are at work in the pelvis while we breathe and move, by flopping forwards over the pubic bone and onto the front abdominal wall. As a result I think those forces will be directed at the pelvic floor , and often cause other prolapses and pain, as Hazel has unfortunately found.

The pelvic floor muscles are not designed to hold anything up, as they are not horizontal, but diagonal and made of thin, sinewy muscle, not thick firm muscle. They are more like drum skins, designed for opening to let things out, wees, poos, babies, menstrual flow etc. As I understand it the pelvic floor only plays a relatively minor role in supporting the pelvic organs, sort of like the back gate of a car ferry, which keeps the integrity of the shape of the ferry at the back end and is lowered open to let cars in and out, but they don't rest against it as they are travelling over the water.

I think I may be a bit out of my depths trying to explain this, or maybe I still don't understand your point. Please confirm that I have understood you, or have another go at explaining it to me. I'm sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It is hard for me to explain and enquire at at the same time, especially after Hazel has expressed such desperation. My heart goes out to her. I just hope she can find her way through this horrible situation she finds herself in after all her surgery.

Cheers

Louise

ps I think big people are responsible for tipping my living room on its side, but they did a lot of practising when they were little! ;-(