An eye opening experience...

Hi Kit

I confess, I do the same thing. I have often wondered if prolapse has been traditionally thought of as an old woman's 'disease' because of this. Old women don't tend to carry themselves well. Some of them look positively wilted. I think I would be wilted too, had I gone through World Wars and the Great Depression as well. I hope I will be able to weather life's difficulties better.

Do the slouch and the dowager's hump cause the osteoporosis or vice versa? Does the change of gait and backwards pelvic tilt that comes with age come from bad posture? Or does the bad posture come from the change in gait and backward tilt of pelvis? Does the slouch come from shame, powerlessness, suffering and lack of autonomy? Does attitude affect posture? Does posture affect attitude? Is it possible for ninety year old to walk like a queen. I believe it is.

I can think of a few very old ladies who laugh out loud, make eye contact, habitually smile and say hello and carry themselves well. They are all pretty lean, so they have no buttocks, but certainly act like whole women who have not wilted one bit, even if they can't move quite as fast as they used to.

I have found it is pretty hard to feel imperfect and ashamed of my body when I walk like a queen; a real benevolent dictator. Maybe there is something to it. Whoops! My tiara is slipping.

Cheers

Louise

I agree completely Kit and Louise. I can’t tell you how often I’ve wanted to reach over to the lady standing in line in front of me and correct her posture on the spot! And no, we should never lose the natural shape of our spine.

Another urgently needed orthopedic study is that of the spines of post-hysterectomy women. After a few years the lumbar curve vanishes, the hips widen, the rib cage seems to settle atop the hip bones, and the waist completely disappears. These bodies are very easy to identify and make up a significant percentage of the female population shopping at Wal-mart!

The female had to strike a very delicate balance with nature. Her hips had to be wide enough to birth large-headed offspring but narrow enough to possess the beautiful, graceful, and efficient gait that is distinctly human. When the hips widen after hysterectomy, as we know they most certainly do, the hip joints must lose some of their innate stability. I have a hypothesis that most of the elderly women lying in hospital beds with broken hips (1) have fractures of the femoral neck and (2) do not have their uterus.

You’re absolutely right, Kit. This whole subject is a marvelous study in natural history and would make a wonderful cover story in National Geographic.

Hi Christine

The stupid thing is that this sort of survey would be quite simple to do, by measuring a sample of hysterectomised women in several age groups along with a control group, both pre and post menopause, standing in their normal posture. You could measure waist, bust and hips, distance between outer extremities of pelvic crests and pubic bone to bottom of sternum (that's using a high tech piece of equipment called a tape measure!). Then simply compare the two sets of data (hysterectomised and control) for each age group and have a look at the difference. As long as the sample sizes were big enough and the ethnic mix was consistent, it would tell you unequivocally if the musculo-skeleto-fascial structure of the female body becomes different over time following hysterectomy.

It could lead to some very interesting implications and questions being asked about the longterm effects of hysterectomy.

Now that would be an interesting Honours or Masters project for a physiotherapy or nursing student (or orthopaedics or gynaecology student for that matter).

If there were no difference, that theory goes up in flames!

Cheers

Louise

The hysterectomized "look" is most predominant in the 35-55 age group. These women often have short hair and an appearance that is not "butch" but not feminine either. This is a reality that our society does not want to admit, but it is the truth.

Okay Louise...looks like we add this to our study docket. If we were to start a non-profit, obtain grants, and hire the right people to conduct the study it would be very doable.

Hi Christine

Why does Wholewoman have to do the studies? There are students all over the world at Universities with good academic reputations who search high and low for meaningful research topics for Honours and Masters subjects. Or do you want to do it yourself?

I reckon it would be a good way of getting some dialogue established with large institutions, and get some cooperation going where there are already good researchers.

Cheers

Louise

Christine --

I know what you mean by the look but I think we have to be careful not to slip over a line. I am a terrible people-watcher but I try to discipline myself because it can be unkind and it's easy to draw wrong conclusions. I have never liked to feminize myself very much, and have very short hair. I also sometimes slip and shop at Wal-Mart! But I have all my parts.

There are an infinite number of ways to be, and we can't afford to think we know someone by looking at them.

Ellen

You are so right, Ellen, and I didn’t mean to suggest a massive group stare.

I was only trying to emphasize that when the endocrine system is disrupted at such a deep level there are dramatic, far-reaching, and permanent systemic effects. We see this with thyroid and adrenal disease, and certainly most severely with castration.

We’ve heard for years such things as “I am not my uterus” or “My womanhood does not depend on whether or not I have a uterus”, when in fact post-hysterectomy changes are radical – right down to the shape and functionality of our bones.

Our doctors are not going to stop these surgeries. Only women telling the truth to each other will bring a close to the darkest chapter in medical history, a truth that is harsh and cruel but somehow must be told all the same.

So much gratitude for all your beautiful contributions (still trying to work the pants gusset out!),

Christine

Christine --

I'm with you!

I'm glad you mentioned the gusset because when I posted that info, I left out a crucial part of the instructions. I'll try to bring the old thread up again and add it.

Ellen

Hi Christine

Generalisations aside, I wonder if there has been any research done on the endocrinological side of the post-hysterectomy woman who has ovaries left in place (but perhaps without a blood supply) vs removal of ovaries altogether. ie I wonder if the research backs up the practice of leaving the (possibly non-functional) ovaries in place?

And what does happen to their bone structure if their ovaries are left in place?

I know that women who undergo full castration well before the age of natural menopause have to have HRT to avoid a massive reaction to the sudden shutdown of oestrogen production from loss of ovaries, and the resultant loss of bone mass, but what about the women whose ovaries are left there?

And how much eostrogen and progesterone are still produced by the post-menopausal uterus and ovaries, compared to pre-menopausal uterus and ovaries? And what about ovaries with limited or no blood supply? I know about the concept but what about the figures?

Cheers

Louise

This is a subject worthy of a blog post! I will get right to it...

Coincidently, I took my new posture out shopping yesterday.... to Walmart.

And I just have to share how I fared while searching for some proper fitting shorts: Having tried on a pair and stepping out of the fitting room to show my husband how they fit, I came out again with the shorts in hand to head back to the rack for another pair (they were comfortable and a nice length -yeah!). As I set out, a young woman came up behind me and asked if I could tell her where I found the shorts. I said "sure, I'm heading over there - follow me!" She accepted my invitation and on the way shared that she was pregnant and was looking for a pair of comfortable shorts... *BLINK* *BLINK*

...Now granted, she didn't say that she was "pregnant, TOO", but I have to say that in a quick add of two and two, it dawned on me that she might have thought that I was in a similar condition because of my posture! So I asked her if that's what she thought (I'm a 51yearold grandmom). Sure, she was quick to say "no", but I couldn't... I can't shake the feeling that I just don't wear the posture very well at all.

My husband tried to reassure me that the gal probably just noted the wide waist-band and drawstring tie on the shorts I had in my hand and didn't see me in them, thinking I was preggers. *sigh* I shouldn't be so vain, I know - I shouldn't care what people think, but I do. This experience is the kind of thing that will have me thinking twice before deciding to go out, and when it can't be avoided, have me feeling self-conscious all the while.

Excuse me for veering a bit off course in this thread, but having prepared the majority of my post off site in Notepad, I was fascinated to come upon this thread when I came on to post my experience - anyway, thanks for letting me air out.

Homebound ~Blue

Hey Blue (and I am trying to say this very gently)

Think about this. If the woman was honest and really didn't think you were pregnant then there is no problem. If she did think you were pregnant, is that the worst thing in the world? Women have such a wide variety of shapes. As a 55yo myself, I know I would be taken aback if somebody suggested I was expecting, but it is such a funny prospect these days! The reason you both were attracted to the shorts is the same. They are designed with women's bodies in mind. They are good shorts! The woman who spoke to you will have the same body changes as you have had, as she gets older.

I really think that one of the major adjustments with WW posture is challenging the relentless theme of "Have the body of a sixteen year old and you have succeeded!" This impossible and stupid mantra is peddled by the media, the fashion industry, the health and fitness industries, and eventually our very own brains. These industries all rely on this theme to bring customers back to buy more product, *because* it is an *impossible* quest.

We don't have bodies of sixteen year olds when we are over 50. Some may like to have the outside looking like a sixteen year old, but remove the lycra from the outside, and think about the insides, particularly after bearing babies, and there is a different story to tell. Some women do also seem to experience very few changes in fat thickness and distribution as they age, but still do not have the body of a sixteen year old!

We do not have to be slaves to the expectations of others, particularly when it is to our current and future detriment. Hey, we are mature women after all. We are too wise for all that BS.

I am not suggesting that we should ignore healthy practices, simply that we need to acknowledge the changes that happen and work with them.

I hope that you can have a little chuckle that she probably did think you were youthful enough and female enough to be pregnant. ;-)

Cheers

Louise

I was reading your post with great interest. and I got to the part where you were bonding with the prego woman and I saw the lead up to discussing the posture with her and then BAM - no dice. I love that you were so approachable to her. That she instantly bonded with you. Sisterhood is so hard to find. So maybe next time tell her about us-- I feel like I have been given this gift of finding this site and Christine's ideas. I simply feel charged to share (and now here I am bossing you to do it too- will I never just quit already?).

I am sure you are simply beautiful in the posture. It is a gorgeous shape. Fertility goddess material. Sure our culture encourages a more masculine shape- but I think we women can change that- so hold your head high you beautiful woman- stick out your booty and relax your belly. More than anything confidence in this posture looks so sexy-

your story proves that you are indeed, wearing the posture well. I know I look about 3 or 4 mo pg. people are always giving me that 'is she or isn't she???' look. I can only hope that I look as good as you do at 51, that people would assume I am young enough to be pg. what a compliment!

I know its hard to let go of the 'flat belly' ideal. one thing to let go in the privacy of our own homes, another to go out and allow ourselves to look 'fat' in public. but you will see, with time, you will start to realize how beautiful is the mature female body, when allowed to be held in its natural form. much more graceful and feminine. so go out proudly, blue!

(and by the way, I still shop in maternity for comfy clothes that fit well)

I could write a short story about all the times since I began practicing WW posture that people have thought I was pregnant. Now, it's the posture, plus some style of clothing. You know how many of the new styles have a band or tie just below the breast line and then flare out? Well, I like those styles, and on a 16 year old, you pretty much know she's not pg, but on me, well . . . My latest best one was at Mass one Sunday, with my 3 kids in tow behind me, going to Communion. The woman handing out Communion actually, after giving it to me, put her hand on my belly. It took me a moment before I realized what she was doing (praying for my unborn child, but there's noone in there!! (lol) ). When I told my daughter, she said, "Mom, don't wear that shirt anymore". That was a good one, but even better (not related to pg) was the next week when I watched my dh go to Communion with my ds (age 3), and ds has a full container of peanuts, no top, and right as my dh was receiving Communion, ds trips and drops all the peanuts - dh is scrambling to pick them up - I turn to my dd to tell her and right at that moment she turns to tell me something and whacks me really hard in the nose with her head and my nose starts bleeding. I'm holding my nose when dh comes back and he's looking at me like "what's wrong with you!" Anyway, God has a sense of humor, I guess.

Marie

LOL. You are so right. I am not quite sure what takes us over the edge into being a wise woman, possibly being mistaken for the world's oldest mother-to-be, and being able to laugh about it? It certainly would challenge my image of myself! Once there are a few wrinkles though, and a few other signs, we seem to be able to appear any old way we like, and nobody really judges, and who cares if they do? Perhaps finally we know it really doesn't matter.

But seriously, Moms-to-be are not always glowing with youth. There have always been women giving birth in their forties. Equally there are grandmothers aged not much over 30! Then there are women who are thirty who have spent too much time in the sun, who look over 50, and women who have seen little sun who, at the age of 60, look no more than 35. There are also older women who are foster mothers, and have day-to-day care of their grandchildren. There are also overweight women who look little different when they are pregnant. We cannot assume anything about a bump on the tummy, or the relationship to each other of an older and a younger person.

Anything goes these days. We just have to look beyond the erroneous assumptions that others make about us, and laugh joyously, and not judge others about whom we assume things. :-).

Cheers

Louise

... and thanks for all your sharings, gals. I'm so thankful to have found this place where I can vent and share, laugh and dispair... It really does help, knowing that you have likely 'been there, done that' with the different 'prolapsets' (prolapse/upset) I'm experiencing. ((HUGS))

This one is going to be hard to feel comfortable with and it will likely put a damper on how adventurous I am from now on. At home I can be the me I need to be so that's where I'll stay on those days that I'm feeling fragile... I hate this new fragility and hope that I can one day become half as strong as you all. I figure if I hang out here long enough, I just may, such are your influences *smile*

Before my prolapse reared it's ugly head (yep, feels like an alien trying to escape me) I was on top of the world, it seemed (in preparation of my 50th BD and first grandchild) - Within less than a year, I worked my way to fit and trim after dieting out of obesity; to athletically active and energetic after being such a potato... Now I'm steadily vegging back to where I was - I should have known it was too good to last.

Marie, bless you for being able to see the light side - Should someone ever lay hands in prayer over my bellied blad & ute, I will think of you, and hopefully laugh about it too. *smile* As for your family's spilled nuts and nose knockin'... guess where I'll have to keep my thoughts from straying as I head up for communion myself this Sunday? lol May your service this week be relatively uneventful, kiddo. lolol - Peace be with you.

Granolamom, you are a dearheart. I sure don't feel young enough to look preggers these days (swear I've suddenly prolapsed a decade or two). If I had my druthers, those wonderings of "is she or isn't she" would be aimed at something other than my belly (like is she or isn't she... a republican/democrat?!)... Maybe I'll just stop combing my hair and give them a different reason to stare. = : )

Alemama, Oh I wish I were so able to this early on in the game rather than being so self-centered... Here's to that I will be able to offer such sharings down the road in hopes of sparing others from having to travel this prolapsed way. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction (don't you dare stop "bossing" *grin*). So yes, head's up, bootie's out, and I'll try hard to make friends with my belly. ~ : )

Louise, as usual, you offer lots of food for thought, and think I will. I know this is just another level of this new life I've been swept up by that I have to adjust to. It seems that as prolapse takes our organs to places they've never been before, it takes our heads too. I obviously need to work on a new 'posture' for my brain - Thanks for sharing your perspective; thank you for your wisdom. ((HUGS))

DH is home from work today, hoisting bags of wood chips for mulching the gardens (so wish I could help carry the load), so I think I'll head out there and at least help spread it around and work at walking "proudly". Thank you again, everyone. (((WWHUGS)))

~♥Blue