Let's Talk About (Anal) Sex

Dear Jennifer Lynne, I looked up the wiki item on anal plugs and it said simply that it was a medical device designed to treat fecal incontinence. That's all I know. However, if you have severe uterine prolapse, you would find your uterus impinging on your rectum. The size and material composition of the plug would determine the return pressure to your uterus. As defecation and urination both force the uterus downwards, I am not sure how effective pressure in the rectum would be in holding the uterus in place. You would have to try it. Also I would be extremely careful with insertion, as the prolapsed uterus can bend the rectum, and as you also have rectocele, I would be concerned for possible penetration of the rectum wall. So that makes two concerns I would have, but as I said before you would need to try it. Thanks for letting us know about the anal plug.

Jennifer, the way to manage prolapse is to keep the organs forward as much as possible, and out of the vaginal space they may be trying to cram into. I read your other post and noticed nothing more than a passing mention of posture, so I can only hope you are doing it more than you say you are. It is the foundation of prolapse management.

I have primary rectocele, and I am least symptomatic and most comfortable when the rectum is empty. Anything that makes it harder for the vagina to close and flatten out, works against prolapse management. An anal plug sounds uncomfortable to me, not to mention a potential aggravation to a rectocele. - Surviving

Sorry, Jennifer, but I think we may have a generational gap here. What, exactly, is the purpose of "wearing" an anal plug? I can't figure if it's for some hoped-for sexual gratification or for prolapse reduction. It sounds somewhat scary and brutally uncomfortable. I learned a couple of years ago (through an honest conversation that some young rugby players were having) what an anal plug is, but if I had to guess the "plug" is a very male sort of device/behavior. Sexual behavior is deeply genetic and my humble and admittedly biased opinion is that women should be cautious about imitating male behavior. I don't even know how to express it, but I think with sexual freedom has come a certain level of confusion. It's not that I question such practices from some sort of moral ground - we could stuff stuff up our bum all day long for all I care - but... why would we want to? Just trying to sort it out...

Ha! Someone must have read Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty series. But the question is, kink or not, how does this affect prolapse? I love the fact that sex can help get my uterus up to its highest position, but I wouldn't want to do anything that would make it worse. I guess that is something you will have to find out on your own, unless there is some great authority out there on anal plugs that happens to read this forum.

I think I had read somewhere, correct me if I am wrong, that too much anal sex actually weakens the sphincter muscles, causing leakage in some individuals.
Well, anyway, interesting topic.

Many women do experience strong uterine contractions during orgasm. This is one of many arguments against unwarranted hysterectomy. Nora Coffey, HERS founder, discusses this in her interview with Christine Kent (under Resources/Video). - Surviving

Jennifer, having introduced this topic onto the Forum, I'm sure you were expecting (even hoping for) some lively discussion and differences of opinion. So I'm confident you will forgive any comments that seem judgmental, as we can all see what a personal choice this is. Most of us here are working hard to preserve our organs and body parts for the long haul. At your stage of life this may not seem a huge priority compared to your desire for sexual gratification. But I suspect someday your priorities might change, especially as you approach menopause which is probably at least another decade away for you. Other health issues besides prolapse may even come into play. So just take care. - Surviving

Jennifer, please understand our comments come from a place of caring.

I don't think anal sex is going to hurt you one bit, and it is part of most women's sexual repertoire because most men like to do it. I remember it feeling kinda good when I was about your age. If men didn't enjoy it, I am inclined to believe it would never enter most women's mind.

The anal plug is another matter. I believe anal stimulation enhances orgasm for men - a kink Mother Nature threw into the mix. From my experience, I would guess such is not the case for most females. I just question how we have gone from the male experience of liking anal stimulation to women wearing jeweled anal plugs all day long. Again, not from any place of judgment, simply anthropologic curiosity.

Here is the real problem. In normal anatomy, the rectum is a flat, somewhat airless space. When it is time to "go", the sigmoid colon "dumps" (don't love that term, but it is appropriate) its contents into the rectum, and a great muscular-neural event occurs, which we interpret as the urge to defecate. If we have healthy bowel function, we "go" and then the rectum is flat again. Understand that by just standing and breathing we create a tremendous amount of intra-abdominal pressure. The rectum protects itself by flattening under that pressure. If it is continuously held open, those pressures are moving through it like an expanding balloon. I would not be surprised if this new fad creates a new population of women experiencing rectal intussusception, which is when the rectal lining slides down and protrudes from the anus.

Go have anal sex with your husband, for goodness sake. I would not even consider it in the "kinky" category.

The plug, however, I would put in the "creepy" category, along with shelf pessaries, vaginal weights, and anything that keeps the vagina or anus open to internal pressures.

Christine

I imagine a steady diet of rough anal sex might be kinda hard on some relatively delicate tissues which are not self-lubricating with arousal, as the vagina is. You are using lots of lube I would assume - Surviving

This is not a response to Jennifer, who is only considering the possibility of anal intercourse, but in response to the comments about lots of anal sex. I believe (and I know this sounds preachy - sorry!) if a woman is being made to have lots of anal sex, the entire relationship should be looked at. The same is true for the post-surgery woman who is spraying her vulva/vagina with lidocaine in order to continue to serve her husband's sexual appetite. There is no more complicated issue for women, who are still most often financially dependent on men. Love and emotional attachment are even greater factors. I am beginning to write a book on this subject.

I don't see anything wrong with a little experimentation in the bedroom between loving couples. My husband and I actually tried that in our twenties to see what it was all about. I guess some women get some sexual satisfaction from it, but I found it simply painful.
What bothers me is the young women and teenagers who want to retain their virginity, not want to get pregnant, or just want to keep their boyfriends who do this. What are we teaching our young girls that they don't have enough self esteem to say no, "I am worthy and important in this world. I deserve more!"
That is bothersome to me, I guess especially when I was growing up during the time women's lib was in full force. I had such ideas about what it would be like for women now. But, it doesn't seem that way, it seems we are going more in a backwards direction, especially our young women out there.

I simply gotta say that my thoughts and personal life experiences are in line with Aging Gracefully's post. I fear there are many women out there who are convincing themselves that this feels good, out of a genuine desire to please a man. For me, it was painful and felt like something that had great potential to damage delicate tissues if done regularly. I'm glad this topic has come up, glad for the chance to post my opinion on it, rather than hold it in. - Surviving

Well, I think you have to be young and in a passionate steam! I could probably count on ten toes my experience with anal sex. A male colleague whose specialty was trauma nursing opened my eyes to that side of the world of male sexuality. The number of cases he had seen of things - large and small - wedged high in the rectum was shocking! These conversations are important because, again, I think sexual behavior is deeply genetic - something women might not consider.

Another issue is the political incorrectness of sometimes just being reasonable. Long before I discovered the sexual sensitivity of the anal area, I was shocked to find out what it was that gay men actually did. I made the comment to my aunt in a conversation that any man who would decide to butt-f.... another man was not a good decision maker. Little did I realize that it wasn't only men involved in anal sex. Now that I've discovered the sensitivity of that area, I can appreciate it; but my final personal conclusion is that it's for defecation...not penetration. I don't intend to make a public condemnation of it these days. People are well educated enough to manage cleanliness and not get things confused if that's their choice. I've seen pictures on the covers of pornographic movies that depicted the backsides of girls in a condition I would never want to be in....but who were apparently 'proud' of it enough to show it and there are those who are attracted to it. But I wonder if a continued discussion of it will draw hits to this site that in the end won't be appreciated (pardon my pun).

I’m not worried about WW becoming a porn site - lol. You raise some of the points I believe need to be explored further, though. Not necessarily here, but as part of a larger research project. For instance, I don’t believe gay/straight has much to do with it. It is deeper than that. Case in point, there is a new lesbian movie out that is all the rage because it is very explicit. In the article I read about it they interviewed several lesbian women and asked whether what they portrayed (especially a long, drawn-out scene of oral anal sex) was typical lesbian behavior. Every woman (except one - who knows what she was about) said absolutely not - that would never happen. But of course, who do you suppose directed the film? A male! Yes, we need to be compassionate on all counts. But also, we need a deeper understanding of how the world really works.

I would never condemn others for doing anything they really wanted to do in a loving relationship where each individual trusted each other and had a real desire to engage in certain activities. My goodness, you can't get away from hearing about it!
My problem is still, as even Christine mentions in one of her posts above, that certain women are doing these things to please or keep a man. That's what really bugs me! And, I think there are many out there that are convincing themselves, as surviving said, that they really like it when, if really honest with themselves, really don't.

I guess I am really thinking about our young women, the teenagers who all ready have issues with self esteem. They need a different message than the one they are getting now. When they become confident adults and want to engage in whatever behavior they want is really ok, but it will be because they really want to, not because of pressure from a societal norm.

Jennifer, I myself jumped to an incorrect conclusion at one point, when I suggested you were having rough anal sex. You talked about liking roughness and you talked about anal sex, but these were two different parts of the discussion. Sorry if I caused any confusion. I discovered this when re-reading the thread. - Surviving

Hi Jennifer,
We did get a little off topic, which we tend to do at times when a topic inspires thought. You obviously are a confident woman who is exploring some different sides of her sexuality. Good for you!
I think through all this there has been some very informative information, especially from Christine about anatomy and physiology, and how certain body parts could be affected from certain acts.
I, for one, certainly hope you go away from all this at least better informed. I know I am!!

I have tried it and don't mind it at all . . . always have considered anal sex to be 'nature's birth control' i believe plenty of women like it and not just because men do . . . it's sexy sex. and by the way Toni Bentley, whose book, 'The Surrender' is all about the pleasures of anal sex has recently become a one-woman play.
It's a good and interesting book for those who haven't read it . . . it's been around for awhile. spanking can be extremely erotic for some and goes along with the idea that the female bottom and all parts of it are an erogenous zone for women. i have been able to have an orgasm from spanking alone.
lastly, never underestimate how different all women are in terms of what pleases them sexually.
nope this is last: the Marquis de Sade who penned many an erotic novel in the 1800's (?) is responsible for what we term S&M (earlier referred to as kinky). 'Justine' is one of his books that he wrote while in prison -- why was he in prison? because fascists and puritanical folk punished him for his erotica and imagination. History is always repeating itself. lol

Thank you for your necessary point of view, Sylvia! I have a full day today and can't write much now, but hopefully I will be able to put into words what is in my heart. It is not puritanical, but a deep knowing that "women hold up half the sky", and the profound differences between men and women should at least be acknowledged to exist. It is written into our deepest genetic code and all human creation myths. I grew up next door to a family where the man stayed inside ironing clothes and the woman mowed the lawn. It's not that either...

just wanted to say its so nice being able to come to this site and feel like you can ask anything at all, who and where else could you do this!!! My only experience with anal as doesn't appeal to me is my friend who is a nurse said it damages the nerves/muscles and people who do it a lot can suffer with incontinence, obviously seen more in gay men, sorry to share that!

... What you mean Christine by that statement you keep repeating and which leaves me salivating for more!! What *do* you mean by Sexuality being deeply genetic. Which differences btwn men & women should be acknowledged to exist? Your pov has many times served as food for thought, don't keep us hanging!!

Re topic on hand, anal sex isn't even on my radar - it's strictly prohibited. But I do remember early in marriage once I was talking about it (anal sex) with my dh and he told me that it does cross his mind sometimes and that this is residual effect from the porn he watched while growing up.

No extra marital sexual stimulation is allowed in the religion I practice - not porn, not erotic stories, not masturbating, not even fantasizing about that hot guy (heck, not even looking at that random guy!). I know, it sounds stifling. But from reading discussions similar to this one online, I can't help but feel it's paradoxically more satisfying that I don't expose myself to so much sexually stimulating stuff because then I don't have to keep raising the bar on what turns me on. And pics, movies and stories don't dictate what is and isn't supposed to be sexy. It's so much easier to get turned on. You don't need a cork in your butt or a racy novel to get you going. The plain ol boring stuff like uh kissing is enough and then some.

you sound fortunate to not need to up the ante, so to speak. but for those of us choose to . . . we keep on doing it instead of not having sex at all which would be somewhat disfunctional & unhealthy. thank goodness there's no limit to one's imagination or the novels, images, gadgets (store bought or homemade), etc. Often 'upping the ante' can be achieved by simply using one's imagination while having sex in missionary position with a long-time partner or verbalizing erotica however risque it may sound when not in the middle of ecstasy !
It's all wonderful. Sexual appetite is a healthy fire in the body like being hungry & eating food. I always felt bewildered by women in magazine articles who claim to not have orgasms or who can't figure out if they'd had one or not.

Chicka I think that the genetic differences that Christine was referring to, have to do with (for example) anal stimulation being an actual turn-on for men, whereas women who engage in it are really doing it for the man's benefit and not because it is pleasurable of itself. This of course is the question. I personally agree with her based upon my own experiences. - Surviving

This has become a lively subject. I know Jennifer had approached it as a physiological question, so apologies to you, but it is a curiosity that compels us to really know what it's really all about.
I too want to know what this genetic aspect is! Are women simply mimicking men's behavior to prove something, or is there a real basis in the erotic zone that really appeals to women?
I have to admit that I have read most of the literature mentioned above over the years out of curiosity. Some of those things just don't seem physically possible, and other things were kind of a strange turn on, but I was never one to push it too far in that department.
The question is are women just pawns in a male-orientated world, or are they truly discovering themselves, and proud to finally show it.

it's so interesting how this stuff can be difficult to make fact out of -- just depends on one's own personal experience(s)! but I know my erogenous zones well and my gluteal area is definitely one of them. even when masturbating and no man is physically present my gluteal area is a 'hot spot' for sure!!

I just like this site because I never have had a prolapse and never want to have one so I look here for preventative advice. And will continue to do so. Never meant to offend anyone
Also, i love open conversations about sex so jumped into this one but shouldn't have.

This thread is all part of a broader discussion that needs to take place in our society, and work I have known for a long time was in my future. I don’t have any conclusions (have hardly even begun), and may even find out that everything around this subject is, as Sylvia said, “difficult to make fact out of.” But I’m going to die trying. In fact, I believe it is the most important work of my life. All I have to offer now is sort of stream-of-consciousness.

First of all, I take offense ;) to it being assumed I am not a wild woman, because in fact I was quite sexually adventurous in my younger years. I was also extremely naive about sex and raised in a family of women (mother, 1 sister and 1 half-sister). I had typical experiences with boys - and experienced date rape.

As a very young woman, I learned about sexual predators - and that there is a culture of sexual predators, best exemplified by the priest scandals of the catholic church. I was extremely traumatized, and when I tried to tell my mother what I had learned, it turned into a huge, sordid mess. Similarly, when my step-sister (on my father’s side) told her mother (in the 1950s) that a neighbor was molesting her, her mother slapped her across the face and told her never to say such an ugly thing again.

My mother was filled with the kind of general sexual shame that was so common in her generation. More than that, she did not know herself, and therefore could not know me. She was consumed with fear - the kind of fear I have always associated with persecutions and witch burnings. She kept stirring and stirring her pot of fear. I remained hysterical for decades and my hysteria only caused more stirring of the pot.

In this thread we are talking about “yielding”, “spanking”, “allowing penetration”, and “topless massage”. S&M was mentioned, perhaps even referring to being a dominatrix. These are all very female behaviors.

What is not female behavior is fondling a toddler on your knee while you stroke your clitoris. It just doesn’t happen. Although almost every family has experienced such behavior from an “uncle”. Nor do women rape, peep into bathroom windows, or cop a feel on the bus (that happened to me once too!!)

Women can be conniving, treacherous, murderous…but we hold up half the sky and that half has in large part to do with the extreme differences in our sexual behavior from men. Yes, I understand women commit terrible sex crimes, but the “flavor” of those crimes is different - most significantly, there is usually a male somewhere in the mix.

Many people refer to our society as a “culture of rape” and it has even been expressed here that young women are in greater peril than ever from out-of-control male sexual energy. The world is hugely imbalanced. Rather than women becoming more like men, my hope is that men will become more like women. The Navajo people of the American southwest believe women are the “first sex”. Men are the second, and there are even natural and accepted categories for female-like men, male-like women, and true hermaphrodites.

It is a hugely complicated world, but our place in it as women is absolutely crucial. When we don’t know who we are, or who our sisters and daughters are, we are vulnerable to being silenced and eventually destroyed.

Christine

Christine, your work thus far has been founded upon a realization of the profound differences between the sexes. You have bravely expounded upon these truths despite their seeming to go against decades of pushing for women to be able to be/do/want everything the same as men.

There are many of us out here who instinctively know in our hearts that you are right. Each of our lives has taken a slightly different path to bring us to where we are and what we believe in today. You have been a beacon of light for so many of us who needed to learn to love and trust our womanhood again. To hear that you are writing more on this subject brings me great joy. - Surviving

I'm glad to know that you come here for advice on how to prevent prolapse. You have never asked about or mentioned WW posture so I assume it is going well for you. If you have any experiences to share with regard to how you are preventing prolapse, we would love to have you join in that discussion. - Surviving

I love that idea about men becoming more like women. I have also heard about non western cultures where the women are the leaders in the communities, and they don't have the problems of inequality that ours has. Looking forward to reading more of your insights on the subject, Christine!

I just wanted to point out that Christine's reference to topless massage came from someone's earlier post on this thread. That person subsequently edited her comments. - Surviving

Where else would you get such a mix of the sexual, the sociological and the scientific? And I love the diversity of opinions, beliefs and experiences.

I’ve not tried anal sex in the sense of full penetration by a penis or other object, but for me the area is definitely an erogenous zone, and I can orgasm from that sort of stimulation. I don’t feel I need to take it further at this point, but never say never! If I did change my mind about this, I would be worried about the pain and any potential damage to the area, particularly given I have rectocele. For me, pain is not a turn-on, but I’ve seen and read enough to know that this is not universal. Sexuality does seem an area that is tricky to generalize about – as soon you make some sort of claim about it, then along someone comes with a different perspective that challenges that. The one exception to this I would say is consent – this I believe should be enthusiastic in all cases.

Just want to add that for years I’ve been working on forgiving my mother, and no longer carry hate and resentment in my heart. I cannot forget her treatment of me, but see now that it’s part of the raw material I use to do my healing work with others. I have hurt people too, not the least of whom my dear and wonderful husband as I struggled to dull my pain.

I can’t get the image of the porn star’s bruised and bloated bum out of my head. So much suffering! I knew there was a reason I never watched porn, not even one movie! But not because of any kind of puritanical reasons - it just seemed fake and as an emotional type I was always most interested in the deep (and often dramatic!) relationships attached to sex. Some of these comments (if they have not been deleted) seem to suggest there is an escalation of sexual desire - one could say mania - without some level of constraint. Yet, while Chicka and her husband may have reached a high state of sexual equilibrium, I think it’s safe to say that religion in general cannot control sexuality without instilling a tremendous amount of fear and violence.

The judgments of the holier-than-thou do not help either. I have a dear friend who I met when I gave my Whole Woman class to her years ago, since she could not afford to pay at the time. Only 3 generations removed from slavery, she grew up in a horribly abusive environment in one of Albuquerque’s few black families during the forties and fifties. She fled to the military at eighteen years of age, where she was taken to an isolated area by her white superior and raped. A child resulted, and two more along the way during a rough and raw life of simply trying to survive as a black female in America.The best she could figure out was to become a sex worker to support herself and her children. She specialized in being a dominatrix and catered to men who wanted to be abused in that way. I’m not sure how it worked, but I believe her when she says she has not had sexual contact in decades. The stars and planets turned in her favor when she was finally able to receive disability from the military. And she has been trying to heal ever since, has almost earned a college degree, and is now becoming a kung fu master. She’s one of the most real and delightful people I know and some of you may have seen her breathtaking performance as Sojourner Truth at the 2012 WW Conference.

The anal plug has given me a whole new research project!

Christine

hope it wasn't all about a plug for a plug or research for a sexmance.

L(nq)OL

Young women live in a world where sex-sells - even themselves - and they must compete with faster, tighter, smoother, tougher. Staggeringly spiked heels, anorexia, labiaplasty, meticulously kept hairless mons, and now jeweled plugs up their a$$. Sounds painful to me, but who are we to judge? They don’t want to be hippies. Thanks for cluing us in, Jennifer, and I hope we were able to answer some of your questions.

ever any different? Sex always sold, that women and men wish to experiment in self-mutilating ways I think is cause for general concern. It's a little like women in Turkey, once a secular society, claiming they wanted the 'freedom' to wear veils. I remember perhaps a less narcissistic time when people were rather busy and preoccupied with making their countries great or preserving them from oppressive regimes. Does any of this contribute to a good society?

It has dawned on me that we've been a little judgmental about the female plug. My apologies, Jennifer.

You may have been a little judgmental as you say Christine. I was wondering where in the scheme of things any of this fit. If a pessary is considered ultimately not an effective long term solution to pelvic organ prolapse and by keeping the uterus open can cause damage, then I have to question how can an anal plug which must fit tightly against the walls of the rectum to be able to prevent possible leakage be considered not potentially damaging to uterine prolapse or rectocele? And Jennifer claimed to have 2 pelvic organ prolapses; one severe. So I am led to assume that if Jenifer is going to wear an anal plug in order to induce a state of readiness for sex, I wonder not only why someone would find it necessary to do so but why anyone on this wholewoman site would encourage Jennifer to do so. Then I wondered at the implications of such actions and attempted to place it in a cultural context and thought in terms of a general hysteria amongst the younger generation, but let’s face it 41 is not young and an age at which experimentation normally occurs, and so one can't ignore a possible exhibitionism. To each her own but everything in its place. That is the expected unspoken mutual bargain with tolerance.

for your courtesy and thoughts. I am saying that I am wary of sexual experimentation at 41 and its purpose. Sexual experimentation generally occurs in the young for obvious reasons. Later experimentation I have found to be connected to the time of mid-life crisis where natural internal psyche development if resisted can result in varied behaviours and motivations one of which is a longing to preserve youth out of a fear of the unknown and to distract oneself from the feelings of helplessness and emptiness which such a period brings about. This resistance can give rise to behaviours such as greater sexual hunger, desertion of family etc. Such behaviours seek to relieve the unsettling turbulent forces of a thwarted psyche development. The longer we resist and delay these turbulent forces of self knowledge and realisation, the more difficult the process becomes. (Not everyone achieves it) and the more painful and destruction our neurotic symptoms may become.

Not sure I understood you fab, are you likening the "freedom" to wear the veil in Turkey to the "freedom" to experiment in self mutilation/butt-plugging?

I think I can safely speak for these women when I say that the freedom they are talking about is the freedom to embrace their femaleness in the way their creator meant them to.
A paradox again, but covering up establishes my female identity without subjecting me to the control of men. I'm a woman and I'm God's servant first and foremost; men, my husband included, come far far after Him.

There is tremendous freedom in that.